What In The World Is The Judge Going To Say?
I know a few of you have read my other thread titled: "Insulation required or not?" The latest has taken a turn for the worse.
This guy has not been on the job site for 2 weeks and because of this I have asked to be more aware of what is going on. I am constantly at the site talking to workers he has subed work out to who are always frustrated the job is not ready for them. Now this guy is pissed that I even talk to the other contractors and has finally decided he wants to disolve the agreement. I want to post the agreement again and list what has not been done. I will also post what we have paid so far to this guy and I ask for replies as to is rightly owed money at this point. I will respond inbetween each item description.
1) Foundation:
a) Remove all rotten and termite infested floor joist, bands, studs, top plates and support beams.
b) Replace with new lumber to meet code. (Pressure treated where necessary).
c) Pour piers to support floor systems and load bearing walls.
d) Sure up exterior brick wall near driveway.
Total: (Including materials and labor) $3,900
MY TAKE: THE WOOD SUB FLOOR IS DOWN SO I REALLY HAVE NO TRUE KNOWLEDGE IF HE SKIPPED OVER ANY OF THE ITEMS MENTIONED ABOVE. I AM GOING TO GIVE HIM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT AND ASSUME HE DID ALL THE ITEMS LISTED ABOVE. I SUPPOSE IF PUSH CAME TO SHOVE I COULD PULL UP THE SUB FLOOR AND SEE IF ALL ITEMS MEET CODE. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THEY WOULD. NO $$ MONEY OWED FROM THIS AREA.
2) Floor System:
a) Install new floor joist in master bedroom, master bath and kitchen with 2x8 lumber.
b) Install subfloor system in master bedroom, master bath and kitchen.
c) Install hardwoods floors in Kitchen, dining room bathrooms and living room.
d) Install Berber carpet in all bedrooms
Total (Including materials and labor) $5,500
MY TAKE: ITEMS A AND B HAVE BEEN DONE, BUT THERE HAS NOT BEEN HARDWOODS INSTALLED OR CARPET LAID YET. THESE ITEMS HAVE NOT EVEN BEEN PURCHASED YET. WE FIGURE AN APPROXIMATE AMOUNT OF $3500 (labor and materials) OF WORK HAS NOT BEEN COMPLETED.
3) Roof:
a) Remove existing roof shingles.
b) Repair rotten slats
c) Add necessary supports for roof system
d) Build cricket in dead valley in rear.
e) Shingle roof with 3 tab shingles.
Total (Including materials and labor) $4,200
MY TAKE: HE SAYS HE IS DONE WITH THE ROOF BUT THERE ARE STILL MANY ROTTEN SLATS HE HAS NOT REPAIRED AND THE ROOF STILL SAGS QUITE A BIT. THERE STILL IS NOT A CRICKET BUILT TO FIX A STANDING WATER ISSUE ON THE REAR OF THE ROOF. WE WILL ESTIMATE LOW AND SAY $1200 HAS NOT BEEN COMPLETED.
4) Electrical:
a) Install new light fixtures in all rooms.
b) Ceiling fans in Master bedroom and Living room
Total (Including fixtures and labor) $1,200
THIS IS A TRICKY AREA. OBVIOUSLY THE ABOVE AREA ONLY DETAILS OUT NEW FIXTURES AND CEILING FANS BUT THIS GUY HAD THE WHOLE HOUSE COMPLETELY REWIRED WITH THE ELECTRICIAN DOING A GOOD JOB. AT THIS PoINT WE ARE STILL AT DRYWALLL SO NO FIXTURES, SOCKETS, SWITCHPLATES, ETC ARE IN THE HOUSE. WE DO NOT FEEL ANY MONEY IS OWED FROM THIS ORIGINAL AMOUNT. $0
5) Doors & Windows:
a) Install new interior doors
b) Install new exterior doors
c) Install new door knobs
d) Install new windows
Total (Including materials and labor) $4,500
MY TAKE: ALL WINDOWS HAVE BEEN INSTALLED AND THE FRONT AND REAR DOOR HAVE BEEN INSTALLED. NO INTERIOR DOORS HAVE BEEN PURCHASED OR INSTALLED NOR HAVE ANY HARDWARE BEEN INSTALLED. WE FEEL $2000 IS A FAIR AMOUNT TO SAY STILL NEEDS TO BE COMPLETED.
6) Sheetrock:
a) Remove all existing sheetrock from walls and ceilings
b) Replace with new ½ inch sheetrock.
c) Replace base molding with new
d) Tape, mud and sand to paintable finish.
e) Paint interior of house. (Walls..2 different colors….ceilings white)
Total (Including materials and labor) $6,200
MY TAKE: SHEETROCK HAS NOT BEEN SANDED AND THE INTERIOR HAS NOT BEEN PAINTED. WE FEEL THERE IS AT LEAST $1800 WORTH OF WORK STILL TO BE COMPLETED.
7) Kitchen:
a) Install kitchen cabinets. (Using Brian’s cabinet person @ $1,950)
b) Install new countertop.
c) Install new sink
d) Install new oven/cook top combo
Total (Including materials and labor) $2,800
CABINETS ARE PURCHASED AND INSTALLED. NOTHING ELSE HAS BEEN DONE. $850 WORTH OF WORK IS STILL TO BE DONE.
8) Bathrooms:
a) Install new tub/shower combo in bathrooms.
b) Install new toilets
c) Install new vanities and mirrors.
d) Install new fixtures, including faucets, TP holders and towel bars.
Total (Including materials and labor) $5,000
MY TAKE: SHOWER/TUB COMBOS HAVE BEEN INSTALLED. NOTHING ELSE. THIS IS ANOTHER TRICKY PART. HE INFORMED AS (HALFWAY THROUGH THE JOB) THAT ALL NEW PLUMBING WAS TO NEEDED TO BE PUT IN THE HOUSE. WE SAID FINE BUT IT WAS TO BE INCLUDED IN THE ORIGINAL QUOTE. BASED ON THE THINGS STILL TO BE DONE, WE FEEL $3500 WORTH OF WORK STILL NEEDS TO BE COMPLETED.
9) HVAC
a) Install new HVAC unit for house.
Total (Including materials and labor) $3,500
MY TAKE: DONE, NO MONEY OR WORK DUE HERE OTHER THAN VENTS ADDED. $0 DUE TO US.
10) Siding:
a) Replace existing siding with new vinyl siding.
b) Cap soffit and fascia with new siding
Total (Including materials and labor) $4,800
MY TAKE: THERE IS STILL SIDING WORK TO BE DONE AND THE SOFFITS AND FASCIA HAVE NOT BEEN REPAIRED. WE FEEL $ 2000 WORTH OF WORK IS STILL LEFT TO BE DONE.
11) Front Porch.
a) Remove existing brick columns.
b) Romove screen.
c) Replace with wood railing.
Total (Including materials and labor) $1,000
MY TAKE: ITEMS A AND B HAVE BEEN COMPLETED, BUT NOT ITEM C WHICH IS THE MAIN PART OF THE PORCH WORK. WE FEEL $500 WORTH OF WORK IS STILL OWED TO US.
12) Demo and punch out
a) Removal of all debris
b) Repair of any items damaged during remodel.
Total (including materials and labor) $2,950
THIS IS DONE, NO ARUMENT HERE. $0
Estimated Total Project Cost: $45,500
This is turn key, start to finish.
SO FAR WE HAVE PAID $37,000 ON THIS JOB.
BASED ON THE NUMBERS REFERENCED ABOVE THERE IS STILL $14850 LEFT TO BE DONE.
IT IS OUR OPION THAT WE ARE OWED SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF $7000 BACK FROM THE ORIGINAL CONTRACTOR.
HERE IS THE FUNNY PART: HE JUST SENT ME AN EMAIL STING THAT HE WOULD LIKE TO DISSOLVE THE AGREEMENT AND PAY HIM AN ADDITIONAL $3200. HE WAS EVEN NICE ENOUGH TO GIVE US AN ADDRESS TO SEND THE PAYMENT TO HIM.
What happens at this point? Do we simply fire the guy and tell him we are not paying him squat, make a complaint to the better business bureau and then diligently tell everyone within our local REI association what he has done?
Or do we fire him and then tell him we will see him in civil court? What happens if this guy actually files a lien on our property for the $3200 he thinks we owe him?
Thanks in advance.
Suntzu18
Sunutzu, are you sure you can't salvage this thing? If I were in your shoes I'd want a meeting with the GC, ASAP, and try to work it out. For instance, I can't believe he's pissed because you're talking to subs. I'm thinking there's more going on than that.
If I were in your shoes I'd want to find out, get it fixed, and keep the work going.
Sure, it's been slow. But brother, that can be better than the headaches you might be heading for.
It looks to me like he's got all the subs engaged on your project. They're just in various stages of scheduling. My biggest fear would be in cutting him loose (firing him) and then having subs and suppliers show up who haven't been paid.
If this GC is keeping everyone paid you should breath at least one sigh of relief, and know you have a chance to avert a financial calamity.
Here's the reality as I see it. If he wants to, he can be petulant and slow your job down even further because you made him mad. Or, if you can work things out, he may get on your side and actually try to speed things up. I've seen it work both ways.
Since you appear to hold little negotiating power your role should be to try to induce the former.
Going for attornies and courts is costly and should be a LAST resort.
I can't help but believe that if this is a legitimate contractor who responsibly pays his bills and has a list of satisfied customers, then you should be able to reasonably work something out to get your project completed.
Agree with JC. Sometimes you can get bogged down with all the details that irritate you and lose site of the big picture. He can do more damage than it's worth, particularly with getting clear title transferred. I've been there, and it's better to settle up with him and go on to the next deal with richer knowledge., that will prevent the repeat of a bad experience...
Swallow your pride on this one and get the job completed. How much time of you spent posting these several posts, thinking about how to handle this, messing around with this deal? How much do you think your time is worth per hour?
Sit down with the contractor and deal with the contract. Ask what it is going to take to get it done and resolved. Let him know that if he doesn't complete the contract than the money he has is what he is going to get and be prepared to go to court over it, as very little information is needed by a contract to get a lien placed on a property.
You are also going to have to document the heck out of everything such as with pictures, etc to show the work not completed and don't expect to get anywhere close to the amounts you "feel" are due you from the courts.
Obviously we are not aware of everything that is going on here - mainly just your side - but for the contractor to up and walk there must be lots going on.
Salvage it if you can and get it completed, be willing to walk away for what is already paid, and prepare for a battle in court or prepared to pay the additional $3,200 to get the lien removed. He may be bluffing to try to get you not to have him do any more of the work, but you must be prepared for it. Also, check with the subs to make sure they have been paid, as some GC's are known to not pay them and all these liens come out of nowhere onto the property.
Suntzu,
Anytime you can work out problems without going through the court system then every one is better off, except of lawyers of course.
At the same time, you need to do several things;
1) document and take pictures of any and all problems that exist. (for court)
Contact all suppliers and subcontractors that you know of to see which one have been paid.....get releases from those if possible. Those who have not been paid you need to find out what is owed so that you can bring it up at the meeting with the GC.
Do not bring it up in a manner in which the GC will be come defensive, but that it has come to your attention that there workers / suppliers that are still owed and you know that HE wants that resolved as you do......so it is to his interest to finish the job so he can pay everyone.........but do NOT give him any more money.
2) meet with the GC and go over your list of concerns along with the money that was agreed upon to the various stages of contruction. If you feel that phase A is only 80% complete, you should not have had to pay him the full amount. You need to get the money situation resolved, I would NOT give him any more money until he finishes all phases in which he has been paid.
3) You need to get lien releases that everyone has been paid...............if he does not provide such, then you would be crazy paying any additional monies.
4) And this is the cop side of me coming out......you need to check your state laws on this one but I would secretly record the meeting between you and the GC.
Here in NC, you can secretly record another person as long as one of the parties (which is you) knows they are being recorded. Amazing how stories can change when one is on the stand.
5) There is a difference between working not being done versus working being done improperly.......if the latter is the case then hire a licensed home inspector (certification will be important in court) that can testify to any improper workmanship.........not to be confused with quality or aesthetics. There is a phrase called "industry standard"......which may not be the same standards as you and I........the GC only has to prove industry standard.
6) While at the meeting you need to keep emotions out of it..................explain your concerns but at the same time show that it is in everybodies best interest to resolve in a professinal manner.
Ask for a flow schedule to be drawn upon so that you when the work will be completed. Obviously you have chosen a GC that does not know how to a GC..............partly the state of GA for not having any requirements, but at the same time you failed to get references on the clown and check those references out..........valuable lesson that will make you a better Rehabber.
If you see the GC is not going to bend then you need to end the meeting and consult with a lawyer asap.
Let us know how it all works out.......in the mean time, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year........
NC_Yank
My take is you are between a rock and a hard place.
You feel he owes you $7000 and he feels that he doesn't owe you $7000 but you owe him $4000?
That is a $11,000 discrepency.
There is no way you two will come to an agrement on that money if you try to part company. You are most likely going to get mechanics liens filed against you and be dealing with this for months without being able to sell the house and in the end you might end up having to pay him the $4000 more and pay somebody else to come back in and finish
- And I can guarantee you that if you have $15,000 work left to do, it is going to cost you at least $20,000 to get it done by the replacement contractor! That is for certain.
Because of your weak contract and horrible situation, I would bite the bullet and get him to finish, no matter what. It could be much worse, on top of all this you could be at odds over the work completed and arguing about having to pay him more money just to get the work contracted done. Thank God you aren't in that situation on top of all this.
Bite the bullet, swallow the pride, do what you need to do to get him back, finish, paid and gone.
Learn from this one.
Next time get detailed scope of work. Make the payment schedule based on major catergories of completion so everybody knows exactly where you are in a project vs payment.
A suggestion:
Find and talk to some tough lawyer, and have him/her represent you in dealing with this guy so you don't have to.
I've done this over the years for lots of clients and have seen it done often, and can tell you that quite often the benefits really outweigh the costs.
The other side realizes they aren't going to be bulldozing you or bluffing you and that alone tends to make them more amenable to settling on some basis that's better for you than what you'd otherwise get.