Warning Toall..please Read
I have a story that i want to tell only so this never happens to anyone else. due to the very high prices in homes around my area my wife and I found out it was actually cheaper to have a new house built. we had our real estate agent show us a lot in a very nice neighborhood. my agent walked it with me and said it looks like the last lot in the neighborhood and we figured on a spot that a house could be built. he had a plat map and told me where he estimated the lot lines to be. and you could see from the 2 houses next to it that what was on the plat made sense..to me it did anyway..a inexperienced land buyer. my agent on the other hand was recently in a real estate magazine for "most sold raw land" so I figured he was an expert. so we bought the lot, cleared it and my builder was one week away from laying the foundation. then I get a call one night, Ill never forget it. the guy on the other line said I better sit down because the lot I cleared a week earlier was his! I of course thought he was crazy, I thought he was some scam artist trying to make a quick buck. but no, it was true. there were actually 2 lots there and my realtor showed me his and that what I thought was mine and thought I bought. to make this story even funner the guy who owned the lot was a real estate lawyer in my county! not too shabby huh? after months of investigating I found my realtor is liable for nothing. as long as he did not knowingly show me the wrong lot then hes in the clear(like I could prove that anyway). so now the lot that is REALLY mine is so steep its going to take a 30k foundation and evrything else has been more than planned. what was once a 165k project will now be a 200k project. please evryone listen to me...dont trust anyone about anything. have a survey done, I know it can sometimes be a lot of money but believe me its worth it. a LOT of real estate agents are ex used car salesman..please remember that. the laws passed through legislation are to protect big buisness..not you and me. I had a lawyer tell me that if an agent shows me a house for sale and I buy it and come to find out the house I really bought was 10 blocks away and it was a dump that the real estate agent would not be held liable(again unless you could prove he knowingly did it). so please watch your back and take care of you. you might think that this has discouraged me from pursuing real estate, but its not. I close on my first investment at the end of this month wiser and stronger. happy investingto all.
Just a thought for your next venture. I always make the seller have the lot staked prior to submitting my offer, as well as supplying my with the survey of the land. Better luck next time
I always love these horror stories posted here because most of the time there's some pretty simple remedy and a lot of the problem is throwing up your hands and surrenduring too soon..
Dan, my guess is that a "most sold raw land" real estate broker is concerned about his reputation. File your lawsuit. Make a stink. File a complaint with the state body that licenses real estate brokers. My guess is that he will offer some money to settle-- maybe not your full asking price but some. File your lawsuit. If your existing attny isn't willing to do it find another attny. Oh, name the guy who was in title before you as well for allowing his agent to misrepresent the situation.
Second, go ask the guy next door how much he wants for his lot. Since you mistakenly thought that the two vacant lots were one my guess is that his lot is small too, the two lots are probably worth more together than seperately. Add his asking price to your lawsuit.
Third, learn to read a plat. Even without surveyors stakes you should have been able to see that this was two lots and not one from the prior plat.
Fourth, surveyors stakes won't necessarily help you. This may be an urban legend but I heard of a guy who bought a parcel out in the suburbs here which he had staked while the surveyor was there. Somebody (presumably the seller but try to prove it) moved the stakes 50 feet out into the forest preserve. Needless to say when they got ready to build they were unhappy. but a guy who can't tell the difference between 125 feet and almost 200 feet probably deserves to be taken for a ride. Learn to step off distances and get a close approximation.
Stop blaming others-- get smart yourself.
Commercialking.....
nothing like a dose of tough love first thing in the morning. lol
REally though, I don't see how an agent with supposedly that much experience goofed up that bad. Subdivision plats are pretty simple to read. Besides, if it is a new subdivion, the survey crew for the engineer usually not only stakes the property corners but also paints the property line on the curb in case the equipment knocks down some of the pins.
How did you clear the lot w/o getting the corners staked?? How could you tell if you were on your "property" or not? At least you discovered this prior to having your foundation poured.
I just bought a lot in a new sub to build a house on, and the lender required a survey as a condition of lending...
This goes down as another example of why we need a forum "Mistakes I have made". This is the kind of thing that as newbies, we miss. I have learned just from buying my own home, that Realtors are usually just trying another career and the one's I have dealt with have for the most part been pretty bad. I'm learning now how to recognize a good Realtor, but also learning that just because they say it's so, doesn't mean it is.
Thank you so much for sharing this story. These are the kind of experiences we need to hear about and this is probably one of the best education you have probably ever gotten, even if it was bit pricey.
BTW- If the neighbor doesn't want to sell, maybe he wants to buy your lot.???
Thanks,
Robert
"Experience is the things in life we never wanted to learn".
just to let everyone know I have tried all those soloutions. they did not work. I threatened to file a lawsuit and even hired a lawyer and the brokerage said ha ha bring it on because they have a super high priced lawyer that will fight cases all the way to the supreme court before they write a check. and thats just it, I could take them to court but it could take up to 2 years and cost 10-20k in legal expenses and I could still lose. its just not worth pursuing when I could lose. if I was sure I could win the I would pursue it. ...Now to address COMMERCIALKING..I will agree that now I know and will be educated in the future..but,, what your saying is just STUPID! so the next time I go to a bank to make a deposit I will jump behind the counter and make sure that they are typing in the deposit correctly and make sur they are doing everything correctly. and then when I go get something to eat I will go in to the kitchen of the resteraunt and make sure they are cooking the food correctly. bottom line is we pay people a lot of money to perform services and they should be performed correctly. I should not have to hold everybodys hand and make sure they are doing there job! If a real estate agents job is not to show the correct piece of property then what the hell is his job?! I guess from now on when the realtor needs to take a pee I will go help him with that too. there is no way you are going to try and make this my fault, the only fault I admit is trusting a very good realtor to do his job right. for that I take full blame. ps its nice to see that you are perfect and have never made any mistakes in real estate you are an inspiration to us www.all.lol
Dilteden:
Thanks for sharing. Success stories are inspirational but mistakes teach me through experience. I think that the latter is more valuable.
Good luck on your next deal.
:-D
I'm glad to hear that you've got a good attitude about it and you're smiling.
There are 2 kinds of mistakes....the kinds that bury you and the kind that you can walk away from...a bit bruised, but more knowledgeable. Glad to hear that this was the second kind, rather than the first.
How could your closing attorney allow you to make the purchase without having a licensed surveyor prepare a certified survey? Talk about buying a pig in the poke...
There is a certain amount of due diligence that you either do yourself (and run the risk of screwing it up) or you pay someone to do.
Sometimes, you can pay someone to do it, and think that you are doing everything by the book... and still get screwed.
I bought a waterview lot (had an unobstructed view of the WTC) which had been owned by a little old lady for more than 50 years. I had a title search, and a property survey. Long story short, an active, sanitary sewer main bisected the property but didn't show up on any survey, deed, or easement. Blah, blah, blah, lost in court and lost about 30K out of pocket, and about $130K potential profit between my costs, and the anticipated sales price for the contemporary house designed for the lot. Make that $35K out of pocket. Oh, yeah, legal fees, too. Make that $40,000.
[ Edited by TheShortSalePro on Date 05/19/2004 ]
your welcome. thats just it, i need to clarify my post. I wrote it not to seek advice, but to warn others. I knew at least 10 people before me and NONE of them had a survey done prior to building. it did however work out for them because when there realtor showed them the lot it was the correct lot. but what happened to me could of easily happened to them and it could easily happen to anyone who is not very careful. after what I have gone through I would not wish that upon anybody(except maybe COMERCIALKING lol) . and it was not a new subdivision, it was an old one and this was the last lot, or I should say the last 2 lots, ha ha.
dlitedan,
Glad to meet you.
I having been following this post just to see what the outcome would be without comment, however the old cashman thought he should put his take in.
Results_One made sense to me, yes lesson learned it is not always about the good side it is about informing others of the down side.
So thank you for sharing with the rest of us.
I would agree with you on the you hired a professional to help you and when they erred that cost you money they decided to talk about the Supreme Court. Investors talk about CYA paperwork , just read a Realtors contract, I think they invented the word CYA. "If the moon is out of alignment with the 3rd star from the left and a light should shine in your eyes at night while lying in bed of a house we sold you we are not responsible."
My thoughts are if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen, but don't make someone who put their trust in you suffer because of your mistake.
As far as suing normally I do not advise anyone to go to that extreme, it costs serious money to sue someone today and if you haven't been there and done that and learned the real cost, you most likely would not be recommending this proceedure.
Then you have 12 people who could not figure out how to get out of jury duty deciding your fate.
Again I thank you for sharing as it will help others understand there are down sides to this business, to bad you had to learn the hard way.
John $Cash$ Locke
short sales pro. thats one of the things I could not understand. This got past so many educated experienced people. I know it got past me but I am a fed ex courier with no knowledge of building. if there was a package somewhere on the property I would of for sure found it because that is my expertise.
Funny. In what part of the USA did this happen? Most lawyers recommend title, survey, perc tests... and recommend making the purchase contingent upon issuance of any variances... I can't imagine how you could have beenthisclose to a building permit... since most building code officials require a sealed survey to be included with the permit application (to insure that proper setbacks, lot coverage, etc.)
Are you sure that you aren't putting us on?
very funny! Oh how I wish I was putting you on. No, the county approved permits for building there(on someone elses lot). the health district came out and stood on the wrong lot and approved me septic. According to my lawyers there is a law written that no public servant can be held responsible for any mistake he made uknowingly, its a joke. trust me, there is not one thing anybody on this website can tell me to do that I have not already done. I researched thsi like you can not believe. now I see I should of done the research before and not after.(trying to laugh). I live in WA state. very liberal, very messed up laws. right next to the tree huggers in oregon.[ Edited by dlitedan on Date 05/19/2004 ]
They say that what doesn't quite kill you will make you stronger.... but that doesn't make anyone feel any better.
But I'll bet that your new home will be terrific... and you'll have stories to tell to your guests.
dlitedan:
My heart goes out to you. I just hate to hear horror stories like yours. I hope this account serves its purpose to alert the membership of the need for verifying and double checking each transaction.
Your attitude is good. Most investor has a cemetary full of "shouda/wouda/coulda mistakes, nightmares,and miscues
I am going to suggest something for your serious consideration. Examine the financial feasibility and desirablility of building on this steep back lot. It may not be cost effective it may not be profitable for the cash/risk outlay. Check the drainage and effluent leaving your lot and flowing onto you neighbors (attorney) site. This could cause more problems in the future. You may be better off selling this lot at a small loss and building on a more disirable site. There will be better days.
yes I have been looking into that. its going to be ok. the good news is althought material costs have rose the price and value of homes in this area have also rose. I will build this house for around 200k and similar homes are selling for 230-250k. so besides my sanity and time not all is lost. thanks for the reply.
dlitedan,
I have some questions because of what I haven't seen anything on:
1. did your purchase contract contain a legal description of any lot and if so, which lot?
2. did you get title insurance? If so, what was the property description in the policy?
I don't know what state is involved, however, there was a case in Indiana a few years ago that has several similarities to yours. Buyer thought they were buying "front lot". Sign was on front lot. Seller did not own front lot, but owned "back lot." Purchase contract contained legal description for the back lot. Closing occurred, buyer started clearing front lot, and owner of front lot said "hold on there..."
Buyer sued listing broker for negligence, rescission of contract, trial court found for buyer. Broker appealed, saying that broker was representing seller, not buyer and owed no duty to buyer. Appellate court said that buyer's claim was for negligence, not breach of fiduciary duty. On the issue of damages, broker said "no harm, no foul--little value difference between front lot and back lot." Appeal court disagreed, saying each piece of real property is unique, even if the monetary value of the two parcels was identical, the Purchaser still did not receive the benefit of her bargan, which was to buy the front lot.
Appellate court upheld the trial court's award to the buyer consisting of reimbursement for contract price, plus interest, taxes and fees. The Court of Appeals decision was rendered in 1996.
I have a citation for the court's opinion. Without naming the parties, I'll just post this:
699 NE 2d 1064 (1996)
Your attorney might be able to research this case and see if there are any more like it.
Nancy
Also remember this if you are selling 2 pieces that you own.
Sold a house on 2 acres, and 20 surrounding acres to 2 separate buyers.
Sold the land first, then the house second, come to find out that the driveway was on the land I sold first.
Not sure how the guy that bought the house is getting in to his garage now.
It’s not my problem now, he got the survey and decided to go through with the purchase.
The house buyer lawyer told him to have me credit him the amount it would cost him to have the driveway removed, which was about $400.00. Lawyer must not have thought it through, they were to busy trying to nickel and dime on the price.
This was my personal house, so I was not as careful as I am with my other RE deals.
Never can be too careful.
All I can say is "I Feel your pain".
And that I just bought a Wheel Measure at Home Depot.
Ed
Man, guess I started a firestorm this morning and didn't even realize it. Here I come home from a long day slaving in the real estate developers salt mine and find out that Dan's all p.o.'d and calling me names. So, really in all good fun I guess I need to answer a couple of these things.
So, I apologize Dan for hurting your feelings. I understand (now) you didn't post this looking for advice you just wanted to vent.
"On 2004-05-19 12:53, dlitedan wrote:
just to let everyone know I have tried all those soloutions. they did not work."
Well what "all those solutions did you try? The only one you talk about is filing a lawsuit. How much does the neighbor want for his lot?
"I threatened to file a lawsuit and even hired a lawyer and the brokerage said ha ha bring it on because they have a super high priced lawyer that will fight cases all the way to the supreme court before they write a check. and thats just it, I could take them to court but it could take up to 2 years and cost 10-20k in legal expenses and I could still lose. its just not worth pursuing when I could lose if I was sure I could win the I would pursue it.
Well, a couple of points here:
1) what did you expect them to do-- send over a check? They can talk all they want about their high priced lawyer but the bottom line is they still gotta pay him and they are doing the same calculation you are about the odds of loosing.
2) You've already lost-- you bought a lot that is going to take you $35,000 more than you have to build on. So depending on how you figure it you're out either $35,000 or the price of your purchase. So how much did you pay for the lot? How much less than you paid for it is it worth? Now compare that number to the cost of the attny. Talk all you want about $10,000 to $20,000 to go to trial its going to cost less than $5,000 to file (worry about getting to trial later, all you gotta do now is make a stink) back that up with a complaint to the state regulatory board and you've got a pretty big stick. There is no such thing as a sure thing (especially in court) except when you don't file then you are sure to loose.
3) You don't have to win in court to win. You only have to make the other side so miserable that they agree to settle to make the pain stop.
"..Now to address COMMERCIALKING..I will agree that now I know and will be educated in the future..but,, what your saying is just STUPID! so the next time I go to a bank to make a deposit I will jump behind the counter and make sure that they are typing in the deposit correctly and make sur they are doing everything correctly."
Yes, every time you go to the bank they hand you a reciept for your deposit. You need to check that the account number on the reciept matches the one on your account and that the total on the reciept matches the amount you deposited. I do that before I walk away from the window. Of course you don't have to do that and most of the time there's no problem. But if you don't and the money gets put in somebody else's account you are at least partially to blame.
"and then when I go get something to eat I will go in to the kitchen of the resteraunt and make sure they are cooking the food correctly.
Well, the government does do this for you thats what they make health inspectors for. But if the hamburger smells funny and you eat it anyway its not the resturants fault exactly. All I'm saying is that if you are going to be in the real estate biz you need to learn what the equalivent of bad hamburger smells like.
"bottom line is we pay people a lot of money to perform services and they should be performed correctly. I should not have to hold everybodys hand and make sure they are doing there job! If a real estate agents job is not to show the correct piece of property then what the hell is his job?!"
Well its not a bad idea to point out at this point that the real estate agent doesn't work for you-- he works for the seller. So to say you have paid him to do a competent job is not exactly true. The seller paid him to find a buyer for his lot. He did that.
On the other hand if he defrauded you into believing something that was not true then he should be pursued for that fraud.
Finally, yes it is your job to hold everybody's hand. That's why you get the big bucks. Welcome to being a developer.
"I guess from now on when the realtor needs to take a pee I will go help him with that too."
Only if you have a financial stake in where the urine goes.
"there is no way you are going to try and make this my fault, the only fault I admit is trusting a very good realtor to do his job right. for that I take full blame."
Well that is not quite right, after all, is it. You're sorta casting aspersions on this broker for not doing his job but doing a survey is not his job. And in the original post you imply that you did not get a survey because you thought it was too expensive. If you are going to rely on professionals you gotta get the professional to do the work he's qualified for. If you want a survey that means hiring a surveyor. The sellers real estate broker is also not competent to give you medical advice. If you break your arm get a doctor.
"ps its nice to see that you are perfect and have never made any mistakes in real estate you are an inspiration to us all. lol"
Not at all, I've made some beauts. Like the time I was personally liable on the million dollar loan for the "affordable" senior apartment building. Only to find out that there was an error in the assumptions of the demographic data we used to design the target market (Hint, income distribution in the senior market is an INVERTED bell curve). Lost sleep for months.
Or the time, at the begining of the S & L crisis when I said, "Oh well this will blow over, I'll take out a 2nd on my house to fund phase two of the deal. By the time my balloon on this project comes due in a year it'll be easy to borrow money again." That one led to a bankruptcy filing.
Or, not my personal mistake, but the buddy built the house on the wrong lot. New subdivision, all those lots look alike. Got ready to close before the surveyor coming out fo the final check discovered there was no house on the lot they were refinancing. Worked out ok. Got the owner of the lot with the house on it to trade for the other lot and $5,000. (sound sorta like your deal? The difference is that he didn't quit when he got the bad news, kept trying till he found a solution).
Most of my really expensive errors, like yours have been in trusting people who turned out to be untrustworthy.
I take a certain amount of pride in having made more mistakes than almost any developer I know. The point is not that you don't make mistakes but that you figure out how to roll with the punches. Maybe its time to fold your tents on this deal already but I doubt it.
When I had the seniors project that wasn't working I woke up every night for about 6 months about 1:00 am in a cold sweat about how I was going to pay off that million dollar note (or explain it to my Limited Partners). I would get up and sit at my desk at home and try new solutions until I found one that looked like it might work. I would make notes about this new idea. Then go back to bed for an hour or two before going off to start the construction crew at 7:00. Around 8:00 I would get to my desk and look at those notes. Many times they were ideas so stupid I couldn't figure out how I thought they would work even at 5:00 on a couple hours of sleep. But enough of those middle of the night brain storms worked that my LP's eventually got a 20% ROI in a deal that should have gone belly up at least a half a dozen times.
Short sale pro had a point in his first point. Perhaps you have a cause of action against the attny who represented you in the matter. Get a new attny and make that guy one of the co-defendents along with the realtor, the seller the title insurance co. the city (yeah, I know-- they aren't liable. Sue 'em anyway) and everybody else who is within supena distance.
John, the Cashman, yeah I know about how much lawsuits cost (my legal bills the last two years have run in excess of $50,000 and I expect to match that in the balance of this year. But your heat in the kitchen analogy is a good one. If you can't swing with the big boys you'd better stay out of the game.
Meanwhile I'd be trying to come up with some creative way to make that lot worth more or that house cost less. Or, as long as you're blaming people, to make them pay for the mistake.
Bravo! Excellent post commercialking. I commend you on your thoughtfulness, honesty, and yes, tough love. You must have been a drill sgt. at some point in your career. LOL.
And yes, I agree. To be a developer is to "hold the professionals hands," so to speak. If you rely on your engineer to "go engineer this site," or your land planner to "design a community for me," etc. you are not going to last long at all as a developer or home builder. I endlessly am changing the designs and plans of the professionals I hire to do that work. Engineers and land planners don't always keep marketing, costs, appearance, etc. in the forefront of their mind b/c they aren't on the hook for selling all of those new lots or new homes. It is through the collaboration and meeting of the minds with these professionals that communities and homes are built.
Still, sorry to hear of your misfortune. Hard to believe they would fight you over such a small commission and not try to find a good resolution to the problem. Somewhere along the way the ball was seriously dropped. The broker should have been a little more on the ball and you really should have had a survey done prior to closing. Lot surveys are only a couple of hundred dollars...extremely cheap insurance and priceless piece of mind.
OK, I understand you don't want to go through the hassle & expense of a lawsuit. Please tell me you have complained to your state board of realtors. They can cause that realtor and his firm plenty of grief, and at no cost to you. Some states have a fund for damages, as well.
Additionally, there is willful misrepresentation and negligent misrepresentation. Willful negligence is, as you presented, where you would have to prove that the realtor knoew about it, and purposefully mislead you. However, with negligent misrepresentation it does not matter if the realtor knew about it or not. It matters that he SHOULD have known!
wow ok alot of questions and comments I will try to address them all. but I will probably miss some so ask again if I do. First. I am NOT a big time real estate developer who wants to "play with the big boys". I only am having this one house built because It is cheaper in my town to build one then to buy an exsisting one. second. this happened about 6 months ago BEFORE I joined this website, so I was pretty clueless about real estate, I just wanted to have a nice home to live in, the one I live in now is too small. had this happened now I think I would of done better in doing homework since I have read sooo many articles on this site and learned a lot. and here is the rest of what is going on with the realtor. I could not go to court or even petition for a lawsuit because I am telling you I could not find one lawyer who would do it. thye all kept saying your wasting your time. I paid one lawyer 500 dollars who took 2 hours to tell me I did not have a case, like I had the extra cash now. there is no way I am going to court without a lawyer, thats just it too, I have had probably 200 out of 208 people I have talked to say that the agent should be held responsible and you have a case of neglegence. and the 8 that said no you dont have a case were all lawyers. you see what I am saying? cant go to court without a lawyer and wouldnt try if I could. I did file a complaint with the attorney generals office and it is on file(of course the realtor and the broker said my side of the story was not true). The attorney general said they could not do anything for me but sent the complaint to the dept of real estate liscensing for review. they sent me a letter stating they needed to see my purchase and sell agreement and something else for the review. I also called the local board of realtors and spoke with the president. he said the best he could do is tell my agent not to do it again. so then the agent(who has actually been an agent to my father and brother and been refered to many people by them) told me to add up all the extra costs that I am going to pay and he will give me his future commission on ALL deals that either I, My relatives, or anybody that I know do through him untill that amount is paid back to me. That all sounds pretty good but who knows how long that will take and I really need cash now. but I figured that was better than nothing so I said ok(but have not signed anything). so far he just listed my house and it sold, his half of the commision was free. I plan to buy many houses and rent them out but I will be buying in virginia due to the sharp rise in homes here and every investor has bought most everything up. so I really dont know if I will ever get all my money back but I will take what I will get. finally to commercialking, apology accepted. just try and remember when you had those sleepless nights(and I stll do) what it would of felt like for someone to say "hey stupid you really messed up now stop blaming other people, its your fault!" thats what I felt like you were saying to me. I REALLY dont need to hear that. of course I blame myself for this. not being smart enough to figure out what was going on. but mostly for putting my wife through alll this. she has been taking it a lot harder then I have and I took it really hard, still am taking it very hard. again I just put it out there just in case there was a unsuspecting person like me thinking about building. If you are not that person then good for you and I'm happy for you. but if just one person goes to buy a lot and says "hey I remember reading a story about a guy that didnt get a survey done on his lot and loast 35k, huh, I think I will get a survey" then it was worth it.
OK so you're making a little progress here, got some promise of future dollars from the RE agent. How much did you pay for the lot? How much worse is the single lot than the double? Given that part of what you are about is getting into a larger house I'd at least sit with an architect and see about designing a house that can be built in two stages. One stage now that matches what you've got now. And an addition that can be built when you have the money.
So did you send the docs to the regulatory guys? If the local RE board president (who has absolutely no power on this matter) can get a promise of future money perhaps the reg. guys can get them to cough up something now.
In addition there's always the negative PR campaign where you start going to the little local papers and talking about how this guy screwed you. Trust me the potential loss of future business will motivate them.
As long as the broker is feeling apologetic how about asking him what the smaller than you thought lot is worth, you maybe able to sell it for about what you paid for it. Or get him to agree to kick in the difference in relativly short order-- without reffering more relatives.
The point is that you've still got a lever, figure out creative ways to use it.
Where are you located?
Just this additional thought---
So I had this case where I had an option to buy and the seller stiffed me on the option and sold to a big publicly traded co. with deep pockets. I sued. There then proceeded to be a series of "settlement discussions" which consisted of me walking out of meetings because the offer was too low.
So one afternoon I get a call from my attny telling me that the pres of the co. was in town and wanted to have a meeting with me that night. Attny couldn't go because his kid had a ball game. So I go alone and the pres is raving at me. "I'm gonna bury you! I will sue you into oblivion! You can't even afford to keep up with me in this lawsuit.! I've got $200,000 in my budget for Attnys to make your life a living hell until you go away!" Etc etc.
So I say (starting very quietly), "wait a minute, I need to think about what you just said. You're telling me you're going to give Jerry here (pointing to his attny) 200 grand to sue me in a lawsuit that you might not win. And you offer me $50,000 to settle? (extreemly confused expression) Thats insulting! at the very least you ought to offer me Jerry's $200,000 because if you settle then you know you got title. (building to crescendo) HEY, HOW STUPID DO YOU THINK I AM?!? I DON'T HAVE TO SIT HERE AND BE INSULTED!!!!"
and I got up and walked out on the president of the NYSE company and his $250 an hour attny.
So six weeks later they agreed to pay me $250,000.
The point is that the other side is calculating how much stink they think you are going to make and how much it is going to cost them to make that stink die down. When they think that you are going to cause $100,000 in stink they will be more than happy to pay you your $35,000 loss.
comercialking. I laghed at your story of meeting with that president, thanks, that was good. I live in WA state. heres the question I am wondering. since this real estate agent is helping me out with future commissions do you think I should still pursue the complaint with the liscensing board? I have not sent the paperwork they need cause I have been kind of feeling weird about doing it now that he is trying to help a little. I know I dont owe this guy anything and I'm not saying I dont want to pursue it, but do you think I can pursue the complaint and work with this guy still? or is that a conflict of interests? should I say forget that future commision stuff I am going to try and bring you down? and one more thing. I told you that they have a hughpriced lawyer who does not write checks. that was confirmed by 3 other lawyers in my area. they say they know there lawyer and he is extremely arrogant and does not write checks. they told me I could not have picked a worse lawyer to deal with. again, this was told to me by 3 other lawyers, not the brokerage. I guess this guy has a reputation for not settling. but then again I also heard that he is so arrogant that he even has a reputation with the state judges and has lost a few cases in the last couple of years because of it. I also heard that from other lawyers. the only other bright spot of this is what I wrote earlier about although the house is going to cost me 35k more to build, it will still have a value of 235-250k after I spen 200k to build it. does that matter? technicaly I am not "in the hole" but that is 35k more I could of had in equity. I paid 37k for the lot. it has water and power and phone. the lot that I tought was mine would probably take a 10k foundation at the most. this new lots foundation will cost 30k. thats the biggest difference. plus my septic was 7k now its going to be 11k. and the new lot will have basically no space for a yard(low maitenance) and the other lot had some nice front and back yards.
Let's play this future commissions idea out. The one question that still has not been addressed is whether this agent was solely representing the seller or was he also representing you at all? I.e. was he acting as a dual agent? This would have been done via a signed agreement so if you didn't sign anything that he is representing you then he is only representing the seller.
Anyway...so he has offered to pay you future commissions via the work you or your referals do for him. As an agent, we only earn a brokerage commission when closing occurs. I assure you, as an agent, if I don't want a closing to occur, I can exert a LOT of influence on the situation to make that NOT happen. I can fail to market the property. I can market it to the wrong people. I can list it at a price that is way above market so that it never sells. I can be difficult to deal with so that buyers or their agents won't want to work with me or the property i represent. Basically, I can tell you I will pay you my future commissions but then I can also make sure those commissions never come in. You KNOW he has the money now. Get it while it is there. I would be surprised if he actually followed through on anything later on down the road. How will you enforce this agreement? How will you prove your claim to his commission proceeds? Personally, I think this is a ruse to throw you off and settle you down and for the agent to keep his money. As time goes on I assure you he will become less and less inclined to think he owes you any money and the more time that goes on the less leverage you have via the state real estate board, etc. Make your voice be heard now and don't wait.
As commercialking said, the guy at the local board of Realtors has no power here. Sounds like you're talking to attorneys who may be trying to discourage you because they feel the legal bill will outweigh the settlement offer (and they could be right).
However, I would pursue the complaint with the State RE regulatory body. No licensee wants to be brought up before them on charges. And this so-called "mega land agent" who apparently doesn't know how to read tax plats obviously is trying to get you to back off. So that's your cue to not back off. Pursue your complaint with the State RE regulatory body. Rattle the chains.
there was a selling agent involved but I never signed anything saying my agent represented me. he wants me to write down all my added expenses and give it to him so we can keep track as he "pays me back", but he has not asked me to sign anything and my guess is his broker told him not to because that could be used as an admission to guilt.
well I thought I was past the idea of suing or pursuing any other action against him, but everybodys input has got me thinking about it again. thanks again and keep the ideas coming.
there was a selling agent involved but I never signed anything saying my agent represented me. he wants me to write down all my added expenses and give it to him so we can keep track as he "pays me back", but he has not asked me to sign anything and my guess is his broker told him not to because that could be used as an admission to guilt.
well I thought I was past the idea of suing or pursuing any other action against him, but everybodys input has got me thinking about it again. thanks again and keep the ideas coming.
I don't think the question is breach of fiduciary duty --whether the agent "represented" you. I think there are 2 separate issues here:
1. did the agent intentionally sell you the "wrong property"--ie, know that you were buying the wrong property
2. was the agent negligent
Proving intent to defraud would be tough. From the information you have supplied, it seems that the agent was negligent. The agent didn't have to be a surveyor in order to correctly read the plat map.
Guys, Girls, slow down, life is too short. There is too much to do to spend your time talking to attornies and looking for the edge you did not take at time of first transaction.
My first real estate deal as a Real Estate salesman. I sold this house in Brentwood and when asked replied that the sewer was in and all properties on the street were attached. They all were except the one I sold. The Avacado Tree was the tip off but I did not pick up on it.
After the deal closed the Buyer informed me that her plumber said she was still on septic tank and not attached to the sewer.
Sooo Lucius Foster Real estate idiot in training. Then went out and dug up the trench for the new sewer connection. Went down and got the permit and yes like a good little boy I put in the new sewer and even stood around and served beers to the City when they came out for the final connection. I think I used up my commission after my goniff real estate broker took his 60%. But everybody parted friendly and as time went by I got free Avacados for a long long time.
You see your first mistake, please get a Real Estate Agent whowants to do a good job even if it includes a sewer line connection.
Those clients shortly afterward bought an apartment house from me and be advised, I lifed the sewer cover from the street and peered down into the sewer just to insure that all was connected. It was my fault, I was stupid should have looked closer to that lovely Avacado Tree.
Cheers Lucius (representing that oppressed and viafiled minority the licensed persons who try to do it right.)
8-) 8-)
I like the idea of the agent entering into a written agreement to repay your added costs. Itemize it, enter into a letter agreement. As I understand it his standing among your friends and family is important enough to him that he wants to recognize his error and make amends. That is a good thing.
Next suggestion-- make him work for it. Use this guy for all your transactions. Let him run your comps, chase deals, etc. Make it possible for him to earn those commissions so he can pay you back. More than that, bring him to realize that you are a valuable client (or could be).
Now then, assuming that you enter into such an agreement then of course you should drop the regulatory action. It will have served its purpose which was to get him to the table.
I'd rather he kicked in some smaller portion (even 10 or 20%) of ALL his deals until the money is paid. The current arrangement is going to bring the constant question who is a friend or referral of yours and who is not.
Now we also get the news that this guy was not the broker for the seller. So the question becomes how come the sellers agent was unaware of what the parameters of this deal are? Maybe you can make the same stink one step up the line and shake something loose there to.
Nice to see you perking up, reconsidering your options, moving on, rather than bemoaning your fate. Even if, in the end, you end up eating the $35K its better to have ended on a positive note than playing the victom.
A word about all those attnys. Read my article on "How to find a Good attny" here. What you may come to realize is that all the guys you've been talking to are transaction attnys who really don't like suing. Find yourself a scrapper, a litigation guy and he'll be glad to take on this case. Not that you should, only that the advice you've gotten to date all comes from one kind of source. Find other voices, they inspire other ideas.
dan, put simple, this agent IS playing you for what its worth-his protected commission. i believe you have put a run in him and his broker. pursue as stated above and , IMO, drop contact with him until further notice.. my 2 cents..good luck
regards-pat
Well, you understand, when an agent is selling that much raw land, it's hard to keep track of all the little details.
Giving the agent the benefit of the doubt that he just made a bad mistake, I would think if he's a decent person, then he would be willing to make things right. Of course, those dirty dollars are sticky and hard to let go of. Here are two options that would use his skill, rather than his wallet, to make things right. They depend on him actually having good, vacant-land salesmanship skills and on your not being overly attached to that steep lot that you bought sight unseen.
1. He takes over the lot from you at your total cost and then resells it (the next day if he is really so good). Then you make believe all of this never happened.
2. He sells the steep lot for you and finds a suitable lot for your new home, both at no cost to you commission-wise (from him or other agents).
Let me first state that I am not a Lawyer, but a RE agent in WA state. This was not Raw land, but platted ready to build land. Right? If platted, the map/drawing would show the properties' lines/ borders.
Items of interest: 1. Your P&S contract would contain the legal description. 2. Your title report would contain the legal description too. This title report should have been reviewed by the agent, and you to ascertain if any errors where present. There is some WA case laws that deal with mis-identified lots etc. Any GOOD lawyer should be able to find this. The problem is you have little money and lawyers only works for a lot of money. (The truth hurts...)
Questions: Does the RE P&S contain the correct legal address? 2. Does the Title Report contain the correct legal address? 3. Did you and/or your agent review the legal address? 4. Did the agent show the wrong address to you and is it proveable? 5. What county was it in? 6. If you built the property (I don't remember), who placed the contstruction stakes? 7. Did the owner of the lot you thought was yours know of the contruction and didn't tell you of the issues?
Sorry for your troubles, but RE can be hard with its many avenues of traps.
A lawyer is going to look at the big pitchure, how much is the total loss, and what is their share. If their share is enough to take the case on, ok. If not, they will not.
So Dan you saaid that you lived in WA. Is that Snohomish, or King Co. You spoke of Virginia, do you plan to sell this home Being built and moving. You said that all of the realestate in this area is already bieng bought up. Did I see you at the last Tax auction where several properties that I personally have seen sell on E-bay for 10-12,000, were bought for I believe the most expensive parcel went for 1,500 (Snohomish Co BTW). Hmmmm.....
HELP I have tons of knowledge about RE have seen parcels to make nice returns on, but alas I have no $$ and or credit. I just filed BK a little over a year ago, and there for none of the hard money lenderrs will touch me. I have my own business, and have told many that I would us my business with the property as the backing, but no one wants to deal. I havent yet bought my first piece of property. My wife works in a library, and has brought home all kinds of books to read which I have read all of for the last 2-3 years I have read. I have been to the last 3 years County auctions where 100-150 people have went to, but only 10-12 peeps bidding on them. WHERE DO I START......... :-?
[addsig]
do people buy title insyrance as a rule?