Another Terrible Experience With Lawyer In CT
What is wrong with Lawyers?! Im not even going to go into it with you guys because it was so ridiculous. Anyway, he tells us how it wont work and people wont be willing to do this and so on, you all know the story. my question is this. Do you guys use lawyers or do you do the sale yourself and have a notary who notorizes everything for you? The only problem i have right now is that i can not find a state specific purchase agreement and cannot find anybody willing to give one to me. I have a lawyer who said he would close a deal for me if i get one but he doesnt believe there is such thing. to be honest with you i am getting really fed up with these low life lawyers who think they own the world and i dont know what to do about it. i wish i did not have to use one but but i have not done a deal before so i dont know how to do a title search and dont know how to go about the title insurance and how to file a deed. can somebody please help me? does anybody anywhere know of anybody who has done a sub-to in CT? thank you so much
Remind the Lawyer that you hired them for LEGAL advice, not for their opinion regarding if something would work or not. ("What forms do you need to make it legal where you live?" PERIOD!) Have them review the forms you have and recommend changes that would make the forms legal to use where you are. That and only that is their job at this point.
It's your job to make it work, and find the people willing to do this and so on.
Once you have forms, make copies of them, and do the deals yourself. allow the attorney to do the title searches etc. cut them out of as much as you can. They have a tendency to overcomplicate things. Once you realize that no matter how careful you were about doing things right, there will generally be a few extra things that you will have to do anyway, you'll realize that you don't need to be perfect to make it in this business.
Good luck,
Jeff
In MN, a company called Miller Davis has the template for purcahse agreements. I called them on the phone and ordered one. Have many many copies of the one thqat they sent me. Before that, I had a realtor who I knew. I requested that make me a copy. He did. He photocopied it, without his companies logo on it, and I made a few copies of that one too.
Where there is a will, there is a way
good luck
thanks jeff, yes that would be ideal. the lawers like to ask questions and make things way harder than they need to be. the lawyer i talked to today said that he would not write up forms for something so unethical. according to him sub-to doesnt help people it hurts them. Let me tell you, he is lucky i didnt reach across the desk and slap him one. thanks jeff
I will try posting a web site that looks promising
www.regionalbar.com/ RBA%20Real%20Estate%20Uniform%20Contract.doc
p.s. this is the same person but i posted the question from my girlfriends house and didnt have my password so i had to make a diff. account. one more thing. i ordered lockes manual today, will that come with good forms?
www.regionalbar.com/RBA%20Real%20Estate%20Uniform%20Contract.doc
I removed the space before the RBA. Just CANCEL on the network password. It opens up a Word doc.
thank you so much bgross. It makes me feel good to know what great people there are in this world. If there is ever anything i can do for you here in ct i will be more than happy. once again, thanks a lot and good luck to you.
Gentlemen, please control yourself. If you were in Calif. you would never use an attorney. Frankly if I were you in Ct. I would check with the title companies. You might pick one and hang out and learn the ways of title.
In Calif we call them deal busters and they live up to their name. Oh I supose I should confess I did go to Law School and I did take the bar, but I never practiced. That is for anybody but myself. I have never lost a lawsuit, but then my theory is to settle all disputes prior to their reaching that level.
I get enough flak as a Real Estate Broker, but I work with an awful lot of investors and we do them all. DOS is always there but I have yet to see one single lender attempt an enforcement when the payments are coming in the taxes are paid and the house has not been moved off the lot. Frankly of all the foreclosure sales I have attended and we are talking decades, I have never seen an IRS lien come in and go for the property. Oh threats and legal drival but so far we have always avoided.
So please relax. If you get annoyed at the legal forms go to the Realtors and use their form. I am sure some of you know a Realtor or Two. I am sure most of you are getting information from the MLS.
You all have my blessing yes I do invest a www.lot.I am having fun with the big Spike up in property prices. Making offers with the Seller coming back with a non interest bearing loan. One way to offer in on the Spike Price. Try it you will like it.
Lucius
When I am working with an atty I make it very clear that I am looking for legal advice regarding the contract, terms, etc... Not their opinion on wether it will work or not.
Generally I do not work with an atty when doing subject to's. I check title myself, and close with the seller directly.
BTW, I am a licensed agent, so I can say this. I hate all agents. They are worse than lawyers, because they are just as stupid, yet think that they have as much knowledge as an atty!
so do you fill ou the sales agreement yourself and you also sill out the the warrenty deed then you file the deed at the county recorers office. one other thing. you said that i should go to the title co's. i dont think there are any around here becasue i checked the yellow pages and there is nothing for title co's. i think the lawyers handle it. i could be wrong, but what do you think?
I use a title company for my vanilla closings. For a double close or anything out of the ordinary I use a lawyer. Title Companies in my town will not do a double close.
Brenda
I understand everyone's frustration with lawyers. I'm a lawyer and I especially can't stand 99% of them. One thing that could help is to remember the lawyer may be held responsible if your deal goes bad. So the more creative and unusual the deal the more the lawyer has to worry about. A little secret is to hire the lawyer only to be a scrivener. Make the lawyer include that in the fee agreement. A scrivener means that the lawyer is only drafting what you want them to draft. They are not responsible for the structure or the overall plan. They are just documnent drafters.
Good luck and there are a few lawyers out there that pride themselves on being deal-savers and not deal-killers.
interesting. to comment about what you said before about getting forms from your realtors. this is hard becasue i went to 4 different places and non of them would get anything up. i even went to the board of realotrs and they still said no. o well. thanks
People tend to forget that in any job or profession there are bad eggs. Of course there are bad lawyers just like there are bad doctors, teachers, agents etc etc. However, the problem is not "lawyers" in general it might be the "lawyer" that the person is using. If you are not happy with a particular lawyer then hire a new one - but i assure you there are competent, respectful and dilligent attorneys in EVERY state. I have one more year of law school and have worked with attnys in NC, FL, and MA and found that 90% of the people I work with are wonderful people who work ridiculously hard trying to help their clients.
I can understand some peoples frustration with attnys especially b/c most people seek an attny when something is not going right; however, please don't let a bad experience or two cloud your perception of the profession as a whole
Thanks and good luck
PS> johnbriscoe - thank you for your last sentence, I completely agree
it has been the first 8 lawyers i have talked to so far and i have yet to find a decent one
senatorcbp2
I go to law school at Wake Forest University - go deacs...
Before law school I went to Boston University where I majored in Sociology/criminology. During undergradutate I was an actor on the side and after school I went to NY and pursued acting. After doing mainly childrens theater and industrial films for about a year I decided to go back to school. I got a job at a mega-NY firm as a paralegal and they paid for my LSAT class. I stayed there a year and then went to Wake.
I am sorry that you have not had good experiences with attnys so far. As I mentioned most of the attnys I know are wonderful people. I choose the law for a variety of reasons but it certainly wasn't for the title.
I understand that many people don't like attnys and I went to law school knowing that. however helping people when they have no where else to go makes one forget about all the bad press and opinion.
I will probably not practice law my entire life, in fact, that is one reason I belong to this site and read as many REI books as I can along with the immense law school reading. I would also like to teach at some point, but that is not b/c I hate the law.
I know that there is nothing that I can personally say that will make people respect or trust lawyers any more or less than they already do - however I would hope that people keep an open mind about the profession and realize that there are many respected and competent attnys out there.
take care
I personally know a few respectable and intelligent criminal lawyers who happen to be great people, but for some reason in our area their just isnt any intelligent and respectable real estate attorneys.
John,
Thanks for the suggestion.
I see you are across the river (more or less). Maybe we can connect some time. I travel a lot so a little advance scheduling would work for me.
John
Quote:
On 2004-07-15 11:36, johnbriscoe wrote:
A little secret is to hire the lawyer only to be a scrivener. Make the lawyer include that in the fee agreement. A scrivener means that the lawyer is only drafting what you want them to draft. They are not responsible for the structure or the overall plan. They are just documnent drafters.
[addsig]
One of the better difference between the east and west is how closing work. A title company is pretty easy to work with. They offer zero advice and take no position in the deal other then to match the instructions and to hold the funds.
If you are having problems in CT, try finding a title company that can handle your closings. I know some of the states 'back east' are starting to see more escrows at title companies.
John
[addsig]
I_Need_Help,
Glad to meet you.
I did an article a while back that may help you in your quest.
http://www.thecreativeinvestor.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&articleid=172
I have often said " I am not fond of them, but not crazy enough not to use one."
John $Cash$ Locke
[addsig]
I'm odd man out here. My lawyer is great. I think you just have to search until you find the right one. I pay him to tell me the good, the bad and the 'what if'.
Need forms?? How about the internet? You can find almost anything there. I have lived in Ca and Fl and attorneys are not required in either state to close a RE deal. The way I understand it in Ca, the state bar association has blessed all the forms used by Ca agents/brokers, therefore deals can be closed much easier, usually by a title company. In Fl, attorneys are not required either, but the general consensus is to use one anyway. Better safe than sorry.
I belong to the local REI club. We have several attorneys amongst our membership. One of them if very well known as the best RE attorney in northwest Fl. We're glad to have them in the club because they bring valuable advice to the meetings (and some good deals, too!)
I once got bogged down with an agent that could not uderstand what I was trying to do in RE. She claimed to have rehabbed and flipped a few herself, but every time I mentioned other people's money she closed up tighter than a clam shell, saying that never works. So I went elsewhere. That's what you should do. Don't pop the guy - fire him!
Good luck,
Bob
Here's a really good article by commercialking about different types of real estate practiced by attorneys and on finding the right one for your RE investing specialty:
http://www.thecreativeinvestor.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&articleid=552
ChasG, I hope you get to read this because The moderator will probally delete this too.
I hope I didnt give you the impression that I HATE all lawyers. I simply meant to say that I havent met one that really impressed me at their profession.
Wake Forest is a good school ( but of course you know that) isnt it in a small town and everything is old or historic. Ive only seen it on TV so excuse my ignorance.
senatorcbp2
Wake Forest is located in Winston Salem, NC and yes there are many parts of winston salem that are historic. It is a relatively small city but it has been a nice place to go to school.
Don't worry, I know you didn't mean you hate lawyers but thanks for the clarification anyway. Take care
Dear Help/jumper:
Well lord knows I'm not a big fan of the lawyer community (I have the worlds largest collection of lawyer jokes) but I think that part of the problem may lie in you. If you have approached 6 attnys and all of them have told you that your plan is problematic maybe you should conclude that your plan is problematic.
It is certainly problematic in one way, you need to work on your presentation skills.
Or you need to work on pre-screening attnys so that you talk to ones more likely to understand your deal. The world is full of people who concentrate on why something cannot be done. In and of itself this is not a bad thing. A thorough understanding of the hurdles and pitfalls in a deal is the first step to avoiding them. If you take the attny's pointing out a pitfall to be a problem then you are much more likely to fall into that pitfall.
On the other hand, I always worry when an attny tells me he won't do something because its immoral. Not illegal, or unworkable, or a violation of the Code of Ethics. As a group they have a pretty wharped sense of morality so I wouldn't necessarily be too impressed.
Anyway, give a clue what it is your attny's keep telling you you cannot do and maybe we will wade in with either help on revising the plan or help on revising the presentation.
Dear CommercialKing,
I have personally been in attendance with I_NEED_HELP on all of our meetings with lawyers.
I might be wrong but i believe that their is not many people doing creative investing in our area, their actually could be zero people doing subject2 in our area. unless they are doing all the legal forms themselves and doing their own title work and closings. In Connecticut or our area of CT lawyers are the ones who handle closings and title work, title companys = lawyers around here.
The problem is that none of these lawyers know much or anything about subject2. we screen our lawyers by asking them if they have had any prior experience with creative investing. we have had a lawyer who was extremly nice and willing to help us, but when we told her that we would not be informing the lender she ran the other way. we have had lawyers flat out tell us that it is illegal and cant be done. we have also meet with a lawyer who told us land trusts are not applicable in CT.
I dont think the problem is our approach, which we always start off by telling them our intentions and exit strategies which are well thought out. they all seem to think that the idea of someone giving us their house with equity for little to nothing is a infomercial scam or joke, a few lawyers said that this is not helping the seller in anyway no matter what.
I agree that their job isnt to set up deals or to have anything to do with deals of that matter,and their job should only entail handling paperwork, and decreasing our liability. but since they are the ones who are handling the title work and closing, then essentially they are going to find out what we are doing correct? so should we not be upfront with them and try to hide the fact that we are doing sub2? that is the only approach that we havent tried.
Hope this gives you some insight into our situation, thanks for the help guys/gals.[ Edited by ZinOrganization on Date 07/16/2004 ]
well put
ZinOrganization,
Glad to meet you.
First let me state that I know for a fact that Subject To deals are being done in your area.
Now my question would be are you trying to get the Subject To paperwork you need from an attorney?
Are you looking to close with your seller using an attorney?
John $Cash$ Locke
[addsig]
hi john,
No we are not planning on the seller having an attorney. should we? We have most all the paper work that we need. i have the state specifc sales agreement but would like the lawyer to go over it and make it more specific for sub-to. actually i ordered your manual a couple days ago and im just waiting for it. i was hoping that it had a few forms in it so i could get a better idea. i did see one we buy houses sign in my area so i called it and it turns out the guy is just buying convensionally. thanks[ Edited by I_Need_Help on Date 07/16/2004 ]
Hi John, thanks for the quick reply.
we have alot of the contracts that we need, but since we have yet to do a deal, we felt more comfortable with a lawyer going over our contracts. and possibly have them notorized.
on your question about closing. i guess the only thing we would need the lawyer to do is handle the title search/title work.
thanks.
Help & Zin,
I did not find in the statutes than an attorney is require to notorize real estate documents, so this means you can use a notory and close yourself.
Correct you will need an attorney to do a title search as part of your due diligence, but I bet there is someone at the place you record your deed that provides this service for an attorney. Just look for the person with a stack of papers and a laptop, most likely this is a title examiner.
Tell him or her you need preliminary title searches from time to time and offer them cash to do it for you, much less than an attorney charges or learn to do it yourself, it won't hurt to learn.
What you are looking for are any state specific requirements, for example you need a seller disclosure form on the property from your seller and one filled out by you when you sell this is a state requirement.
If your doc's are in order then when your buyer refinances you will have no problem at this time, however you will require an attorney to do the final closing.
If I were going to get papework out of an attorney, I would tell the truth, I am thinking of selling a property I own what paperwork would you require to close on the property. I am not using a realtor.
On the otherhand I then want to purchase a property without a realtor what paperwork would be required. It is boilerplate in the secretary's computer, offer to pay if need be.
John $Cash$ Locke
[addsig]
I_Need_Help,
The last attorney that reviewed the paperwork you will receive, changed "they" to "he/she". True story, however this was in California.
John $Cash$ Locke
[addsig]
john this is exaclt what i mean about lawyers. lol. thank you for all of you help and i really owe it to you
I_NEED_HELP,
I know of a lawfirm in Glastonbury that would be willing to help you. I am not totally familiar with how this sytem works here in this forum. I dont want to be put in TCI jail So if you want to email me please fell free. I will send you the info on the firm via email.
Regards,
Matt
mattv, i would defenitly be interested in talking to this lawyer, is he familiar with creative investing? i pm'd you but i dont know if you got it.
Brenda,
I haven't been able to find a title co to do double closes here in Orlando. Looking for an attorney who can do them.