Subdivision Question
We have contacted a FSBO seller of 9.7 acres of land in a county outside of Philadelphia PA. The lot is about 375 X 1300 with all of the road frontage on the narrow side (375 ft). After a brief look at the townships zoning (the land is in two townships) we belive that you could get 6-7 lots out of the parcel based on square footage alone.
The question I have is how do we get access to the back portion of the parcel? Are shared driveways common or do we need to look at putting in a private road? It a private road is necessary that would probably decrease the number of lots we could get. Should this information be in the zoning ordinance?
Thanks for the info. This site is great.
I'll take a stab fellow biker...
First off, if I understand, the lot is 375' wide and 1300' deep.
In Wisconsin, a subdivision of more than 3 lots (could be 4) must be effectuated via subdivision plat. (i.e. you cannot do a Certified Survey Map or CSM which is the other means of division of a parcel).
That said, in a typical CSM the newly created lots will be served by a driveway whereas in a subdivision, the developer is responsible for access to all lots (for obvious reasons) and would be responsible for the construction of a public road.
Here in Wisconsin, the minimum ROW width is 66' and thus would figure into the design.
It sounds to me like you would have to construct a road for this development (which is not uncommon by any means).
Road construction requires a surety bond to the appropriate municipality to ensure the road was/is constructed to their specs./standards.
All of this information is in the zoning ordinance.
You will also need a copy, if applicable, of the land division or subdivision ordinance.
A private road isn't always the best solution as the homeowners are then responsible for it (i.e. plowing, resurfacing, etc)
Usually, the roads built as a result of subdivision are "dedicated" to the municipality...
Clear as mud right.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Don
The site yield is going to be determined by a couple of things. First: zoning ordinance and subdivision & land development ordinance. Zoning should set forth min. lot size and min. lot width requirements. If there would be flag or lane lots, there should be zoning provisions for these. The subdivision ordinance may contain restrictions on the number of flag lots, or shared driveways, as well as standards for construction of site improvements (roads, curbing, sidewalks, stormwater management, etc.).
You have a further complication here in that the property falls in2 different townships--thus, you've got to look at 2 sets of the above ordinances, potentially with different requirements for min. lot size, lot width, flag lots, etc.
Physical features also impact site yield--slopes, floodplain, soils, vegetation, wetlands, shape, etc. Although the property is 9.7AC, 100% of the property can't be developed. When ball parking site yield (before your engineer actually surveys and does an engineered plan), you should deduct at least 25% from the gross land area, and often more if dictated by site features and constraints. Sometimes the zoning ordinance will spell out how site yield is to be calculated. Also, do you have public water & sewer or is it on-site? If on-site, the site yield will depend on how many places on the property will support the type of sewage disposal system.
Here's one way of ball parking yield:
9.7AC x 43,560 SF = 422,532 SF x 75% (min.) = 316,899 divided by min. lot size (round down) = # of lots
In order to figure the value of the land, you should know what the new homes would sell for there (house on a lot) and also ball park site improvements. If a road is necessary (and it sounds like that would be the case here), that will substantially increase improvement costs.
Thanks for the information. I'm slowly learning what to look for. After talking with the zoning officers of both townships and reading the zoning ordinances I have come up with this -
Lot A
2.2 acres with frontage
Yield 2.2*43560*.75/60,000 = 1 lot
Lot B
7.5 acres with no frontage
Yield 7.5*43560*.75/60,000 = 4 lots
So my price per lot would be $200,000/5 = $40,000 per lot.
New construction is going for $280,000 and up in that area. So the most I should pay per lot raw land is $280,000*.25 = $70,000. I think I need to subtract the improvements from that number. Any idea on how to ballbark an improvement number? It sounds like I would need to build a road (1200 feet long, not sure of width) to get access to the back parcels. I assume there would be legal fees involved as well.
The lots would need septic and well - are these numbers included as improvements to the land or should they be included in the cost of the home?
The whole 10 acres is wooded so we would need to include some costs for clearing the lot. I did talk to a logging company who said they might be interested in buying the hardwood if the trees are big enough. Something worth looking into.
Thanks again for the information. Much appreciated.
I agree that you should deduct the per-lot improvement costs from $70,000 for the one lot. Since you have well and septic, deduct the cost of these plus add a few thousand for site prep and permits.
As for the 4 lots requiring a road, one way to ball park improvement costs for these is:
1,200 linear ft x $150/LF = $180,000 divided by 4 lots = $45,000/lot + cost of well and septic
The $150/LF may be high for your area--I don't know. This is area specific, as is the cost of well and septic. Here, well & septic together can run $12-20,000. The rule of thumb takes into account all theoretical expense except for well & septic and anything extraordinary. You can also do this by pro forma and break down expenses (site improv, interest on site improv, land cost, interest on land loan, legal & accounting, engineering, etc.). Look at the deal that way and see what the bottom line (gross profit margin) is and determine if it makes sense for you to do the deal.
Wow $150/LF to build a road? This is an old thread, but quite informative and a shame it wasn't kept alive longer.
So does anyone have any other formulas under their belt for estimating costs for developing aspects of subdivisions without having to bother contractors, engineers, and architects?
Who has formulas for estimating costs of any of the folowing on average?:
What about curbs, sidewalks, street lighting, walls, retention ponds, drainage, subdivision signs, general landscaping, tree clearing, cable lines, phone lines, gas lines, sewer piping, water lines, wells, septic, street signs, standard fence,etc.
How about insurance costs?
livewell,
I hate to say it but so many of the items you list have huge variables associated with the cost. I have spent anywhere from $0 to $250,000 on detention ponds. I have spent from $5,000 on curb and gutter up to $100,000. It really just depends on what you have going on.
My rule of thumb, and the rule of thumb that most folks in my neck of the woods use is that for your "typical" single family detached lot it will cost about $18,000 to $20,000 per lot to develop (that includes soft and hard costs). For town homes it ends up being around $15,000 to $17,000.
Again, there are so many variables involved it is very hard to give a good answer to this question. My formula can give a very different number than Nacy's though so who knows!
livewell,
woodsong brings up a good point about cost being relative to the particular development scenario. Rules of thumb are, as I said, a way of coming up with a rough number, but to get more precise info, there would have to be a plan drawn and a take-off done. Also, the rules of thumb I use are specific to my area -- these cost factors, like other things, vary from market to market.
Nancy