Shocking Outlet Question !
Many older homes only have the old two prong electrical outlets. When updating these, looks like only the three prong(with ground) are available. My concern is that it appears to have a ground. It does not. The wiring is usually two wire flexable cable. Any suggestions on addressing this ? I'm concerened about the liability. Thanks.
Happy Home
NC
Solution #1:
I am not saying it is a good idea especially if liability is a concern, but I have replaced two prong plugs with three prong ones. If you have updated the panel box with breakers that is good. You should determine the gauge of the wire. 12 gauge wire (bigger) you can use a 20 amp breaker. 14 gauge wire (smaller) DO NOT USE OVER A 15 AMP BREAKER! You should be able to buy new two prong plugs they are not common so they will be harder to find at the store, but I bet they have them.
Solution #2
A far better solution but more expensive and doesn't "show". Re wire the whole house. This requires some knowledge of what you are doing but is not particularly difficult if you have access to an attic and/or crawlspace or unfinished basement. The materials are CHEAP probably $100 for wire, plugs, & switches, and $100 new panel box and breakers for an average 3-4 bed house. It will take you and a buddy about 2 days if you know what you are doing.
Not always a good idea but when you can tell your buyer or insurance agent that it has all new wire that is really good. especially when the old is that nasty "bell and fuse" which sounds like what you have.
Solution #3
Pay someone to do what is described in #2.
Josh
[addsig]
happyhome,
Your concerns are quite valid.
Grounded systems became NEC required in new construction decades ago. (30-40 years?)
Two prong receptacles were available for years afterward to suppost the millions of ungrounded systems in place.
After a reasonable period, they were not sold any more, as the safety of grounded systems became the norm. You will not be able to find two prong outlets in current stock, but maybe in dusty corners of an old shop.
DO NOT install three prong receptacles on an ungrounded circuit. You will be exposing your self to great liability if someone is hurt/killed.
The ethical lapse of knowingly doing such is equivalent or greater than that liability, IMO.
In North Carolina, as the homeowner you can rewire a home you will live in for 12 months following the work. If it is a rehab you will not live in for that period, you need a North Carolina licensed electrician to do that work.
If the home is so old that it has outdated wiring, you can probably assume you will have to replace the entire system entrance, including meter socket, service mains and mast, and install a panel board with circuit breakers, ground fault interruption protection, ground rods, etc.
I used to do home rewiring in Pennsylvania, including new entrances, where I did not need a license, but won't touch it here, except in my own home.
It is not simple work to update the wiring in a home, particularly if it is not gutted to the studs. Even more so if you are not current on the NEC, as I am not.
And once you get into the wall, you need a permit and municipal inspection.
If you are doing rehabbing in NC, I suggest you build a relationship with a licensed electrician you can trust to be responsive to your needs.
Suggestion: When you find a home you would like to consider for a rehab,but question the wiring; PAY an electrical contractor for an in depth inspection of the electrical system. Then pick his brain and get quotes for any work he says is necessary.
Good luck,
[addsig]
Happyhome, you bring up a great subject!
EIther update the service panel and rewire the house or according to NEC Article 210-7(d), a GFCI receptacle may be used to replace an existing non-grounding 2-wire receptacle. In addition, existing non-grounding 2-wire receptacles may be replaced with grounding-type receptacles when they are supplied through a GFCI receptacle. (In this case, however, a grounding wire should not be connected between the GFCI receptacle and those receptacles that it supplies).
What it means is that if you have old wiring consisting of 2 wire receptacles(no ground), you can install a 3 wire GFCI receptical and have that protection. It also means that receptacles "downstream" of that device can be replaced with standard 3 wire receptacles.
The important thing to remember is that those recepticals MUST be identified as not grounded. Most GFCI receptacles include the labels that you can attach to the receptacles.
To Rehabinator:
This is very interesting. I can see how this would be an excellent application to bathrooms and kitchen sinks with current wiring even if I had to cut in a bigger box and use the existing wiring.
Why not replace the breaker box and use all GFI breakers? I suppose the NEC does not allow this broad of an application? Possibly they would trip too often for motors, AC, fans, vacuume cleaners etc. (power surge).
In any case this solves the most important issue.
Thanks,
HappyHome
Well, Rehabinator,
Good job...
You got me to do some homework.
NEC Section 406.3d is the former Section 210.7, relocated for the 2002 NEC.
See page 15 in the following link:
Overview of 2002 Code Changes
Your info looked a LOT like Dan's wiring page.
Coincidence?
[addsig]
Sometime that 2 wire cable will have a bear copper ground wire fastened to the metal box and if so or if you have metal cased BX cable you can run a wire from the ground screw on the outlet to a screw in the box and you will probably ground the outlet. You can check with a tester to make sure it is.
Mike J, nope, I'm a cut and paste man from way back. I keep a lot of web references to look back on when something comes up.
I just went through this a few months ago on an older rehab.....
My electrician rewired the bathrooms and kitchen and we did 3 prong outlets with GFCI's in a new 200 amp service panel.
Of course we pulled permits on the job to keep everything on the up an up.
Much of the wiring in older homes are fine even when ungrounded there are ways to deal with it.
However with that said; you need to beaware of the aluminum wiring that was in use in the the early 60's.
Anytime I come across such wiring, I have an electrician come in and rewire the whole house.
Aluminum is do dangerous to mess with......its like the polybutylene of plumbing........it's a disaster waiting to happen.
NC
NC Yank,
You say you did install in the breaker box GFIC breakers for "all" the branch circuits / convience outlets in the house or just the kitchen and bathroom outlets contolled by 1 or 2 GFCI breakers in the panel box ?
HappyHome[ Edited by happyhome on Date 10/12/2004 ]
Happyhome,
Just because you don’t have three wires coming out of your box doesn’t necessarily mean that the outlet isn’t grounded. If your outlet box is made of metal, just take an electrician’s circuit tester and check for resistance between the hot (black) wire and the metal box. In most of the older homes that used knob and tube wiring, there is a ground wire that runs between all of those boxes. It is not seen from the box because it’s in the wall, usually attached to the box’s nail. Some remodelers don’t know what they are for, and often they get broken and not repaired. When that happens, the outlet will be unprotected. So, check it for resistance. No resistance means there is no ground. When you install a 3-prong plug to such a box that is grounded, that plug is also grounded because the 3-prong is designed to pick-up the ground through its metal chassis.
And by the way, a GFCI outlet still needs to go to a ground, or there’s still no protection.
Quote:
On 2004-10-12 21:32, happyhome wrote:
NC Yank,
You say you did install in the breaker box GFIC breakers for "all" the branch circuits / convience outlets in the house or just the kitchen and bathroom outlets contolled by 1 or 2 GFCI breakers in the panel box ?
HappyHome
[ Edited by happyhome on Date 10/12/2004 ]
There are 3 ways to address this problem.....and I just got off the phone speaking with my electrician who is also a inspector in this county.
1. Install unground receptacles.
2. Run a ground to the circuits.
3. Install a GFCI on all the circuits
We opted for number three, while at the same time rewiring the kitchen and bathrooms.
In regards to any questions about using what amperage breaker......the wire determines the size.
The wiring we used....#14....we used 15amp......on #12 we used 20 amp.
A circuit will trip when there is too much load on it.........having a new wiring system is irrelevant at that point. You want the system to trip to prevent a fire......you options then are to increase the size wire in order to pull the load.
NC_Yank.
PS. In regards to the knob and tube wiring.......they DID NOT use this type of ground when it came out. It was something that electricians may have done to address the grounding issue, however it was not approved nor is it approved today!
Again...you have 3 approved options......anything outside that then you do at your own peril.
[ Edited by NC_Yank on Date 11/12/2004 ]
Quote:
On 2004-11-12 15:30, rod1000 wrote:
Happyhome,
And by the way, a GFCI outlet still needs to go to a ground, or there’s still no protection.
I don't know what you are referring to unless a round about reference to the neutral being grounded in the panel box.
A GFCI does not need a ground wire, that is exactly why the NEC code allows them on a non-grounded circuit. The protection of the GFCI circuit is provided by sensing the difference in current between the hot and the neutral and is safer than a similar grounded circuit, hence the code requirement in a bathroom.
Please post accurate information or get some information before posting when it comes to important, life saving subjects such as this.
Rehabinator-
The following is an excerpt from the “codecheck” authors. The author is Sam Goldwasser. No doubt they do a better job at explaining my earlier one-sentence comment. You should know their credentials, and their endorsement by the International Code Council, formerly the ICBO (probably before your time).
GFCIs and safety ground:
“Despite the fact that a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) may be installed in a 2 wire circuit, the GFCI does not create a safety ground. In fact, shorting between the Hot and Ground holes in the GFCI outlet will do absolutely nothing if the GFCI is not connected to a grounded circuit (at least for the typical GFCI made by Leviton sold at hardware stores and home centers). It will trip only if a fault occurs such that current flows to a true ground. If the original circuit did not have a safety ground, the third hole is not connected. What this means is that an appliance with a 3 prong plug can develop a short between Hot and the (supposedly) grounded case but the GFCI will not trip until someone touches the case and an earth ground (e.g., water pipe, ground from some other circuit, etc.) at the same time.
Note that even though this is acceptable by the NEC, I do not consider it desirable. Your safety now depends on the proper functioning of the GFCI which is considerable more complex and failure prone than a simple fuse or circuit breaker. Therefore, if at all possible, provide a proper Code compliant ground connection to all outlets feeding appliances with 3 wire plugs.”
You Said:
“Please post accurate information or get some information before posting when it comes to important, life saving subjects such as this.”
Now I’ve risked someone’s life because I suggested that they ground their GFI? Since I’ve only made 4 posts here, you can’t possibly know my background. Having read most of your posts, I think I know yours. I especially enjoyed your recent post where you said:
“I would regard myself as having about 1000x's the expertese that a normal person has when it comes to rehabbing, and I still don't do service upgrades myself. I really feel there is a huge difference between snaking some new romex through some walls, wiring plugs, switches and lights and what is involved with understanding the issues of upgrading a service. While the actual physical issue of snapping a breaker into place in a new service panel is relatively simple, the understanding of what is coming off the pole, and the load calculations for the new service are not that simple.
I will run every new wire up to the box and leave a nice pig-tail for the electrician to complete the circuit in the new service, call me timid or silly for not taking it to completion, but I have a healthy respect for knowing when it is time to call in a pro.”
Good. The life you saved was probably your own- I was just wondering, how then, can you give advice on something that you don’t understand?
Alright guys.....
Lets put an end to this converstation before it gets out of hand.
Here at TCI we try to be very careful about dispensing certains types advice, especially in regards to legal issues and state law / regulations.
Happyhome, from North Carolina, asked a specific question that deals with electrical issues.
Being that he is from NC, and I am a licensed both as a GC and Inspector I felt it best to address the question. I do not consider myself an expert in the electrical field, if for no other reason - I do not hold a valid license for such field nor do I practice it frequently other then fixing my own "personal" issues.
There are many electricians that have licenses but do very little work. I see this from home inspections that fail.....as well as watching the electrical building inspectors write up there messes.
With that said.........I contacted my electrician, who is also a building inspector in this county, Cabarrus.
He gave 3 approved options that are allowed.........while some alternatives may work, if they are not approved then they are not allowed.........its simple as that.
Rod, forgive me for making some assumptions, but it appears that you are not licensed in the field of electrical contracting. That does not mean you or those like minded have no knowledge about electricity but it does mean that you are no expert......just as I am no expert in that field as well. So regardless if you do have 1000 x more experience as the average person......that is not saying much.
What is important is that what ever method is used, it must be approved by the local building officials in the state in which the project is being done.
Furthermore, since this is in NC, and I know what I am talking about........it must be done by a licensed electrician. In this state it is illegal to perform certain activities on a home / business without being licensed.
If it is your personal residence, NOT FOR RESALE, then in some counties a person can take a proficiency test in order to peform those tasks.....but one better be willing to back up their expertise in a court of law in case something goes wrong.
I believe that Rehab (and correct me if I am wrong, Rehab) is coming from the same avenue that I am.........what ever method is used must be approved by local authorities..........regardless of what Codecheck authors state.
One other note......sometimes building officials will interpret the code differently then others.......this is a problem in North Carolina. Any contractor that has practiced here knows what I am talking about. There are times that the code dictates one thing and the manufacturer dictates another........while this is rare, by law the contractor must abide by current building regulations.
Again, Happy, contact your local building department and have them give you there take on it.
NC_Yank
NC_Yank,
Re: your comment about aluminum wire. I thought the problem resided at the aluminum/copper interface such as the recepticle. I was told by an electrician in Portsmouth, Virginia that there are recepticles made for aluminum wiring. Are they safe to use?
JBrein
NC_Yank,
You’re right, I didn’t post here so that I would have to do a bunch of bantering. However, if someone wants to take a shot at me, I will defend myself. This will be my final post on this thread:
For the record:
1) I AM licensed in the State of California to do electrical work.
2) I AM a licensed General Building Contractor in the State of California since 1981.
3) I WAS employed by two of California’s largest land developers prior to that as a General Superintendent, where for several years I constantly inspected the work of others.
4) I did do ALL of the electrical wiring in my current home, and on my last home as well (and yes, they both have 200a panels). They all passed inspection.
I designed, engineered, and built both homes as well, large 2-story homes with seismic requirements (mandatory review by a licensed civil engineer prior to the plan-check).
As I review my original post, I see that instead of saying knob and tube, I should have said “older insulated 2 wire”, since that’s what Happyhome said he/she had.
And the last line in my original post should have read:
“And by the way, a GFCI outlet still needs to go to a ground, or there’s still no “GROUNDING” protection”.
I stand by that statement and I backed it up with an excerpt from the “Codecheck” authors. I never meant to imply that a GFCI that was ungrounded offered no protection. You can disregard my credentials if you like but to deny the content in that excerpt makes me laugh, because I have replaced a bad GFCI. I don’t think it is “Stupid” to ground a GFCI if you can…..but if you can’t, you can’t. I was only trying to point out that there was a difference between the two, and I hardly think that that advice will kill anyone.
Rod
Quote:
On 2004-11-15 21:11, jrbrein wrote:
NC_Yank,
Re: your comment about aluminum wire. I thought the problem resided at the aluminum/copper interface such as the recepticle. I was told by an electrician in Portsmouth, Virginia that there are recepticles made for aluminum wiring. Are they safe to use?
JBrein
I do not advocate the use of devices approved for aluminum for the very reason that the general public is not savy to the problem.
While most rehabbers become familiar with it, problems can arise when a home is sold to your average buyer that are not aware of the problem. So when devices or fixtures (it's just not the recepticals) are changed with an unapproved device......we now have a potential fire hazard.
NC_Yank
Rewiring is generally beneficial, however, my experience is that panels run $150-250, depending upon capacity, and wire can easily exceed $200. Further, unless you've got lots of time (and friends), the labor can tie you up for a week, not to mention the potential issues of pulling wire through old construction.
Rod,
To me the issue is what is the purpose of a GCFI.
They are there to help prevent from being fatally electrocuted.
Grounding a circuit, even a GFCI, does NOT necessarily do that.......as you know this is why they came up with the GCFI, in particular in damp / wet areas.
Yes, I will acknowledge that GFCI's can and do go bad at times...................I have found such in my inspections as well as having several go bad at my personal home after a lightning storm......which by the way, in our CE courses for Home Inspections it has been brought up that it is estimated that between 15 - 60% (based up surge areas etc) of GFCI's are not functioning properly because of surges.
Will the additional grounding prevent a fatal shock.....no not necessarily because even on a grounded wiring system, electricity can leak from the hot lead without tripping the circuit breaker.
If that happens, lets say while turning off a faucet, the result could be fatal........even on a grounded GFCI that has gone bad.
Again, this is why they came up with these GFCI's.
As you know a GFCI device constantly monitors current levels on the hot and neutral sides of a circuit.
If the GFCI senses an imbalance of just 1/2000 of an amp, it trips the circuit.
I do not want one to think that simply by grounding a circuit that they will have an added measure of security, they wont..........all it does is cost more money as well as possibly giving the owner a measure of false security.
With that said; GFCI's should be tested periodically, especially after surges and or storms.....it is the functionality of the GFCI can may save some ones life, not weather its grounded or not.
Rod, don't take our disagreement personally............Rehab and I have disagreed on things.......cant think off hand what it was...............probably about Snickers (is better) or Milkyway. (laugh)
NC_Yank
I've seen (admittedly not all read) a lot in this thread about GFCI circuits, but am surprised that I haven't seen the following information about the original question:
In some places (maybe all; I haven't checked the NEC) two-wire outlets are available and a good solution to what to do about them when you want to update, but don't want to re-wire the entire house.
I just finished a rehab in Trenton, NJ, and both my licensed electrician and the local electrical inspector told me that two wire outlets in the house were ok, as long as any replacements were made with two-wire outlets. I can understand that, and that's just what I did. They were available at Home Depot, in-stock.
That might be some useful information wrt this discussion.
NC_Yank and Rod1000,
OK, now I am OFFICIALLY CONFUSED.
I am a REI in upstate NY and I am currently rewiring one of my rental houses that was built in 1908. In 1980, I put in a new 200a service, along with several new 12/2 lines but there were still many old lines in the house which I am now overhauling again. This includes running new lines and removing/replacing old lines with new 12/2 lines.
I have put in several GFCI outlets into the kitchen and bath. They are in plastic boxes. Should I or should I not replace the plastic boxes with metal boxes and ground them with a wire running from the outlet to the box?
Thanks,
Mitchell Goldstein
:-? [ Edited by Mitchell on Date 11/16/2004 ]
I've seen (admittedly not all read) a lot in this thread about GFCI circuits, but am surprised that I haven't seen the following information about the original question:
In some places (maybe all; I haven't checked the NEC) two-wire outlets are available and a good solution to what to do about them when you want to update, but don't want to re-wire the entire house.
I just finished a rehab in Trenton, NJ, and both my licensed electrician and the local electrical inspector told me that two wire outlets in the house were ok, as long as any replacements were made with two-wire outlets. I can understand that, and that's just what I did. They were available at Home Depot, in-stock.
That might be some useful information wrt this discussion.
Quote:
On 2004-11-16 14:27, Mitchell wrote:
NC_Yank and Rod1000,
OK, now I am OFFICIALLY CONFUSED.
I am a REI in upstate NY and I am currently rewiring one of my rental houses that was built in 1908. In 1980, I put in a new 200a service, along with several new 12/2 lines but there were still many old lines in the house which I am now overhauling again. This includes running new lines and removing/replacing old lines with new 12/2 lines.
I have put in several GFCI outlets into the kitchen and bath. They are in plastic boxes. Should I or should I not replace the plastic boxes with metal boxes and ground them with a wire running from the outlet to the box?
Thanks,
Mitchell Goldstein
:-?
<font size=-1>[ Edited by Mitchell on Date 11/16/2004 ]</font>
The metal boxes are not necessary (although GFCI's often require a slightly larger box).............I would put GFCI's outlets in any areas that can be exposed to water......kitchen, bathrooms, laundry, etc........other circuits can be placed on GFCI breakers.
As my earlier noted.......grounding GFCI's does NOT prevent from getting electrocuted on a bad GFCI outlet.
GFCI's and GFCI breakers, when working properly are designed to prevent electrocution.
Electrical issues are something to be concerned with, however there is also no need to spend more money on something in which your are not going to get any additional benefits that justify the cost.
With that said, I would have a Licensed Electrical Contractor evaluate the property, explain to you in layman terms what you currently have...........and justify in clear terms what you need to address any potential problems.
NC_Yank
I have purchased several 2 prong recepticals at both Lowes and Home Depot in the past year. Only places i have found that carried them in stock. About $2.50 a piece but cheaper then rewireing the whole house.
So, anybody know why my previous post showed up twice? I didn't do it! Honestly!
I would agree that metal boxes aren't required for the GFCI outlets. The ground wire should simply go to the outlet's ground connection.
Also, with a little searching, I found that the 1999 NEC section 210-7 says in part:
3. Where a grounding means does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (a), (b), or (c).
a. A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another nongrounding-type receptacle(s).
So, all this GFCI stuff doesn't matter relative to the original questiion, unless you have a reason to want to go that route. That's addressed in sections b and c that follow the above in the code.
A GFCI outlet is totally relevant to the original question. When the poster says he doesn't have access to new non-grounded outlets and he wants to update the outlets the only legal device he can install is a GFCI outlet.
It becomes even more relevant especially when a reply tells him to just use grounded outlets and not ground them, which is a blatant code violation and a sure-fire way to open yourself up to liability.
If the original poster had access to non-grounded outlets he never would have had to post the question. Count yourself lucky if you have access to new non-grounded outlets because it isn't the case everywhere. I have never been able to find them either. Would you care to share the brand?
I will do one better ......... Part number is a 223 Leviton Cost $2.18 comes in White or Ivory. Ackerman or Kendall Electric (Kendall Electric owns Fitzpatrick and Ackerman) carry them. Also Home Depot carries them also. However Home Depot is in the process of changing vendors so not sure if they will be carrying them with there new vendor. If you do not have any of those supply houses near you, call all in your area and find out who sells Leviton. If they do not have them in stock they should be able to order them for you.
Thanks Ronald. I can't get them here at the big boxes, but with that part number I was able to locate a online supplier. http://www.wellspent.org/Product?p=35832
No problem, Glad you were able to locate them.
Here It is! http://www.levitonproducts.com/Catalog/Model_223.htm?ovchn=YAH&ovcpn=Prod&ovcrn=Yahoo&ovtac=PI