Roofing For Rental- 20 Or 30 Year Shingles?
I have 3 houses that need roofing. I plan on holding for the long term. But, who knows what the future will bring?
I am pondering whether to upgrade to the 30 year shingles as opposed to the cheap 3 tab ones. I am paying the same for labor, and I'm kinda leaning to the longer life ones.
Your thoughts please!
ItzMe
What is the cost difference in materials?
[addsig]
You answered the question yourself: "I plan on holding for the long term".
The materials are cheap, the labor is expensive. Buy minimum of 30 year shingles.
Not to start an argument but just for your personal knowledge coming from a contractor / inspector......which ever way you go....tear off all layers of shingles before installing a new roof.
I also install a 30 # felt on all my homes, regardless of the pitch
Some states do allow for you to put a second layer on however, with that said, that in itself is not take into consideration the additional weight that you are putting on the roof system and walls of the house.
Also by adding additional layers will DECREASE the life of your shingle.
On a 30 year shingle you would be lucky to get 15 years on it.
Many roofers, as well as investors, want to do it as cheap and quickly as possible..........I am telling you from a professional stand point which is best for you as well as YOUR INVESTMENT.
Good luck.
PS. Make sure you have a good drip edge from the facia.........to keep the facia and eaves from getting moisture behind them..........contrary to popular belief, water can and does run up hill at times.
Oh yeah....and dont forget good ventilation....I use ridge vents at the top as well.....gable vent if needed but ridge vents is a must.
Granddad always said never to be cheap on 3 things:
Shoes, beds, and roofing...
Interesting question. Here in good ol AZ, we rarely get 15 years out of shingles, regardless of the guarantee. I believe that unless you are in someplace temperate like Honolulu, or possibly San Diego, your warranty is void within 1 year anyway. I think the warranty sstates that it is void if the shingles are exposed to temperatures greater than 100 degrees, or below freezing anyway. My personal opinion is that the 30 year shingles do last better, and are well worth the extra material cost.
Jeff
If you go with shingles go with the longer life ones.
You may want to go with metal. This stuff will last a lot longer and it looks better now than it did a few years ago.
Waiste of money to use 30 yr unless the neighbors all have upgraded to 30 yr. They do last longer and looker better but cost more. Put the difference in another rental. I can buy houses fro 200 down and would do that instead of waisting on roofing. Drip edge is good idea but wood rots no matter if it is completely covered with metal. OK and cheaper to cover 1 layer but not 2. I have seen wooden shakes covered with 3 layers before. What a mess that was.
Good LUCK and HAPPY HOLIDAYS
Hope this helps some
Ted Jr
Personally, I would go with the 30 year if the labor was the same. You win whether you hold or sell. If you hold, you have roof that will last longer, is more resistant to blowing off or being punctured by sticks that fall on the roof, and just plain looks better. If you sell, most people can tell a quality shingle. Their thickness not only makes them sturdier, they actually look sturdier. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I always ask how old the roof is. If it looks bad, or has simply used up a significant percentage of its expected life, I automatically subtract $2000 or more from what I will pay. Definitely go with the drip edge. It is actually code where I live. I'm not sure what to make of the comment about wood rotting even when it's covered with metal, I've never seen that occur on my properties and we get about 60 inches of rain/year.
Quote:
On 2003-12-26 09:54, lacashman wrote:
If you go with shingles go with the longer life ones.
You may want to go with metal. This stuff will last a lot longer and it looks better now than it did a few years ago.
What sort of warranty to they give on the metal roofing?
Around here you pay as much as 4 times the cost but can not get a 50 year warranty on it......at least not the finish.
A person would be better of to replace the regular fiberglass shingles 3 times over and still be ahead.
I do think those metal roofs look great....too bad the prices are high.
I never asked about the warrenty. It was for a rental that I was looking at but Freddie Mac would not come down to my price. He did his own rehab.
Anyway I was going to buy the material from a wholesale place that is close to me. So the cost was only a little more than 30 years shingles.
Best of all me and my brother could put in on in one day. So no labor cost.
if your going long term. play it safe go with the 30 yr. that is if long term means 15 or more years. ggod luck. kenmax
I work for a roofing manufacturer and have been in the industry for years. The important thing to consider is heat and ventilation. I dont know what part of the country your from but lighter color shingles last longer because they reflect heat.
If you are going to put ridge vent you must have eave or gable vents otherwise the ridge vent wont be effective.
Make sure the contractor is putting down an ice & water shield under the first three feet of your roof if your in a cold climate.
I would put the 30yr not because of the warranty but 20 yr shingles are very flimsy .
One thing to consider, there are architectural and three tabs, architectural shingles are almost always 30 + year shingles. They look nice and are very tuogh, I recommend these because you actually save money on labor since they are easy to apply. Bring that up to your contractor so you get a discount It may even be less overall than the 20 yr shingles.
Quote:
On 2003-12-29 15:39, dneville wrote:
One thing to consider, there are architectural and three tabs, architectural shingles are almost always 30 + year shingles. They look nice and are very tuogh, I recommend these because you actually save money on labor since they are easy to apply. Bring that up to your contractor so you get a discount It may even be less overall than the 20 yr shingles.
Hi dneville
Great points.......but the roofing contractor will tell you that the Arch are heavier to handle and not necessarily easier to install, especialy if weaving in valleys etc... and cutting them is a pain as well.
With that said.......I have installed both but I prefer the archs as well.......
NC
Architectural shingles on a rental...no way man!!! My personal house gets the architectural shingles, my tenants get the 3-tabs. Also, you mentioned that your labor cost would be the sam for 15-yr shingles as 30-yr shingles but how much is the difference in the material costs?
I was supposed to be at my desk in the Pentagon, but I had bought this dumpy house in Georgetown and I was installing the roof tiles which were slate and imported from Italy, I mean I do not kid around. My grandchildren can come and visit them. So I am up three stories working away. Drilling and installing and all of a sudden my commanding general the old f--- comes looking for me.
He looks up and yells out "Major Foster you A-- H---! Come down at once." Well I am startled and I let go and down I come three stories and plotch right on the sidewalk alongside his car.
Of course I am a little stunned. I am seeing more stars then in our Galaxy. I stagger to my feet and salute. "Damm," he says, "You didn't have to come straight down that way." I am a little confused, I start to walk back inside the house to try it again. But he stops me. "Well, " he remarks, "I guess this is more important then the defense of your country. Carry on, but be back in two hours. Joint Chiefs are meeting." He takes off. I pass out and there I lay on the sidewalk for the next half hour. Thats Washington D.C. for you.
The moral of this story never install imported Italian Slate roof tiles unless you are of the rank or www.Brig.Gen or above. The interruptions could be fatal.
Don't any of you roofer types install plywood struct 1 when you reroof? and then the 30 lb felts? Required out here or they write insulting things on you license.
Afraid of hights Lucius
The rate is $20 higher per square on the 30 year ones.
Thanks everyone for replying! Happy New Year.
ItzMe
I can't believe this discussion is still going on about goofy old boring shingles.
Someone asked about the cost difference.
Labor is exactly the same. If you find a roofer who is going to charge you more or less money for labor based on a 20, 30 or 40year 3 tab shingle, it is time to find a new roofer. It is the same process and the same amount of work, just a different grade of material to work with.
Difference in price is negligable you are talking about a roof lasting 50% longer or even 100% longer, but the cost to upgrade the material is far lower than 50-100%, so you are coming out ahead no matter how you look at it with a higher grade shingle.
I would never tear off if you can lay over. If code allows it go for it. Those codes are there for weight loads on the roof, not for effecting the life of a shingle. The effect of laying over an old layer of shingles as opposed to tearing off is minimal on shingle life, maybe you lose a year or two, but the cost difference could be double or triple compared to just laying over. I would lay over 10 layers if I could.
Things to expect from a quality job:
If you have to tear off old layers: -
make sure they replace any ply-wood decking that has give to it. Not allowed to lay over new plywood decking, must tear out old piece and replace.
If you don't have a ridge vent - have it added the length of the ridge.
If you don' t have sofit vents have them added.
Use good quality 30 lb felt.
Use ice shield layer under starter courses.
Drip edge is mandatory, not optional.
I would go with threaded valleys with ice shield underlayment.
Replace any flashing that is suspect around chimineys, vents, sky lights.
Doing all that there is no reason you can't get a full 30 years out of a 30 year shingle, with the exception of hail damage or wind damage, but if wind is an issue you are using the wrong shingle to start with, you don't want a 3 tab but a locking shingle.
Quote:
On 2003-12-29 23:42, The-Rehabinator wrote:
I would never tear off if you can lay over. If code allows it go for it. Those codes are there for weight loads on the roof, not for effecting the life of a shingle. The effect of laying over an old layer of shingles as opposed to tearing off is minimal on shingle life, maybe you lose a year or two, but the cost difference could be double or triple compared to just laying over. I would lay over 10 layers if I could.
Great points you made Rehab, however
I disagree with you about the layers as well as the life of the shingles not being effected by additional layers.
There have been study after study showing that life expectancy of the shingles will and do decrease with multiple layers........and yes other factors come into play as well that can adversely effect the multiple layer use even more.
Majority of manufactures will not warranty their shingle for the listed life when multiple layers are added.
So why even spend the money for the extras life of a shingle when the manufacturer will not guarantee it now.
In regards to weight.....the codes are a guide however they do not take into consideration the multiple layers of roofing that people will put on.
I have built up north as well as the south and east coast...........you can look at the code book and it talks about 7 day snow loads..............and what the modulous elasticity is for such...however that is based upon a certain amount of days as well as a resonable about of snow to take into consideration. I venture to say that 1 square foot of shingles weighs more than several inches of snow laying on a roof for a few days....vesus added layers of shingles being on the roof for many years.
Loads on roofs are in fact adding additional stress not only on the roof itself but as well as exterior bearing walls as well as any interior loads points as well.
20 squares of shingles weigh more than most cars.....that weight is in fact being transferred some where.
Trying to apply what the code allows based upon 1 layer of shingles and interpret it as something that is not there is absurd.
Thats like saying a 2 x 4 can span 3', therefore a 2x 8 can span 6'.....it doesnt work that way.
You may in fact want to put 10 layers of roofing if the code allowed.....but the laws of physics will eventually come into play and when all is said in done.......the codes will be changed as they often are because common sense was not used.
I believe the original poster stated this was a long term investment.........with that said it is cheaper to spend alittle more now versus spending a whole lot more later.
you said: "In regards to weight.....the codes are a guide however they do not take into consideration the multiple layers of roofing that people will put on. "
I'm totally confused as to what you mean by that. The codes of how many layers you can put on a roof before you have to tear off are there for exactly that purpose, they do take into consideration the multiple layers of roofing that a person wants to put on. In fact that is exactly what they do they limit the layers that a person can put on before they have to tear off.
Some places the local codes allow 2 layers others allow 3.
Maybe I'm reading your post incorrectly, because I can't see how you can say the codes don't have anything to do with the amount of layers one can add, because that is exactly what they define.
As for the studies in regard to shingle life, like I said there is some effect, but is it dramatic like cutting the life in half? No it isn't. One side of the roof with the worst weather such as a north facing side of the roof may lose a couple of years while the south side wouldn't even need replacing.
I did roofing for many years when I was younger and the roofs I teared off had one thing in common, they didn't need to be torn off yet, it was so common for the home owner to just do a complete tear off because they had an insurance check or they were told by someone when in fact they could have done some repairs and fixes and gotten anywhere from 3-10 more years out of their roof.
From my first hand experience people and I suspect it is driven by the roofing industry are tear off happy, going through the extra expenses for no real reason.
In a plain dollars and sense fashion even if you lose 1/3 of the life of your shingles the dollars add up a lot faster doing the tear offs.
Case 1
2000 tear off $5000....2030 tear off $5000....2060 tear off $5000...2090 tear off $5000 = $20,000
Case 2
2000 lay over $1800....2020 lay over $1800... 2040 tear off... $5000...2070 lay over $1800... 2090 lay over $1800 = $12,200
Both case are simplified, no inflation or anything, but you can see even with a huge penalty of losing 1/3 or 10 years of roofing life with just laying over in case1 tearing off each time you spent $20,000 in case 2 you spent only $12,200. In each case you got 90 years of roof but tearing off gave cost you 60% more.
The reality would be even more dramatic because there is no way you are going to lose 1/3 of the life of the roof for laying over.
Just my experiences.
PS: What I should have said was I would put on 10 layers if the roof would take it. I said codes because the codes are directly related to roof loads.
If the codes allow it, the physics are allowing it.
[ Edited by The-Rehabinator on Date 12/31/2003 ]
Happy New Year Rehab,
Back to our discussion,
The codes does NOT take into consideration the number of layers on a roof in regards to dead loads, not in the ICC anyway.
Yes, you can find minimum layers allowed however if a loading problem occurs then you can not point to the layer section of the code to nullify the problem.
I have been through this with Harriet Homeowner and confused contractor (ususally new) on home inspections that have failed.
Loads and spans used are based upon an "x " amount, such as 10 psf of dead loads and 20 live when figuring spans for rafters as well as taking into consideration spacing of the rafter.
And technically from an engineering stand high and low pitches of roofs will complicate the issue even more.
Due to rising cost of building, many homes are being built according to minimum standards.
We can look at the track homes with trusses or rafters at 2' o.c. with the 7/16 osb that has the wave look that homeowners are complaining about.
What does the code say to do.......put the roofing "h" clips between the spans.
What a joke, you and I know this does absolutely nothing to address the wave problem. Now lets add the additional layer, that the ICC code say you can do and we now have made the problem worse.
When Harrier Homeowner complains to the contractors board long enough and insurance companies are forking out money...one then are engineers brought into the picture along with the insurance commission and codes are eventually changed, at least here in NC.
I see this junk all the time when I inspect homes. When it comes down to structural problems I defer to engineers , that I work with from time to time, that all say the same thing..........the code book is a guide however they are often misinterpreted as well as the product not being installed according to manufacturers instructions.
I just recently got into an arguement with the North Carolina Insurance Commission, which in essence writes the codes, over the code being in conflict with manufacturer installation.
Bottom line was that I was to install it according to the CODE although they the Insurance Commision nor the Inspection Department would take responsibility for problems that will arise out of installing the product against manufactures specifications.
Of course Harriet Homeowner can and would hold me legally responsible for screwing up. Obviously I tossed the code out the window and went with manufactures specs.
We dont even need to go into the aluminum wire fiasco and the number of fires as a result of what the code allowed back then.
So when I say the code is a guide and not all inclusive, you see where I am coming from.
In regards to layers one must remember that the new layer is only as good as the base upon which it is being installed upon. Installing a new roof over a roof that has lost is life expectancy is crazy............yes it may be initally cheaper however in the long run you are paying more for a product whose warranty is void or at least prorated. (another animal when dealing with insurance adjuster)
I haven't even taken into account about the proper method of applying a second layer which few roofers know or do nor how the second layer of shingles often fail to seal properly.........the list goes on and on.
Outside the load issure, my point is there are too many variables involved to simply say that you can install a second layer without concern.
In the 35 plus years I have been in construction, I have lost count of the houses I have built as well the homes I have inspected, but this I do know.....that I keep seeing the same problems.......over loaded roofs, shingles that have lost their life, moisture and grading problems etc.
Obviously these homes passed code when built..............again, codes change and when you add the human error to the equation... Wahlah!!!....you and I are making a nice living fixing and inspecting homes. (smile)
With all said....even though we disagree about this issue......I do respect your opinion and enjoy reading your responses to others when they seek advice.
Hope this coming year is profitable for all.
PS. Wish asbesto roofing was still around. I am fixing up a 60 year old how right now.......roofing is in excellent condition....asbestos.........darn epa.
I totally agree with you in regard to your examples surrounding codes.
As I tell people the code is the minimum that is required, it is the base line of the least standard that is acceptable before you do something that will end up failing, burning, or hurting someone, it isn't something to shoot for as your objective, but often as a starting point, someplace to start and go up from there.
But some of the stuff you are saying is confusing. I have never been aware of a roof warranty being prorated because you covered an existing layer of shingles. (taking for granted of course that we aren't talking about a faulty installation technique, but a good installation that is a layover)
Also, I have never seen load failures being common, not on the east coast where I grew up or here in the west. Even when we got our blizzard last year which was considered a 20 year storm the only roof failures were a few commercial buildings, no residential. Everyone had 2-4 feet of snow on their roofs for a week and there were warnings all over the news about snow loads and such and nothing happened.
Also, unless I am really just missing something, the layer code is only there in regard to roof load and nothing else. There aren't any other variables in it, such as pitch right?
All in all this is a small point, and it looks like there are 2 schools of thought on the subject, to tear off every time or not to.
I would like to see you post if possible on the proper way to install a second and third layer as you stated just to see if I have been missing anything. I know you don't recommend doing those layers but if you had a gun to your head...
I'm going to do some more reseach on the subject, I might just learn something!
Eventually I will be having a custom home built for us to live in the mountains, I have been acumilating a list of features and standards that I want it built to, I can't wait to deal with all the looks and arguments I'm going to get when I give them my list of requirements, such as all 20 amp circuits as minimum, 2x6 walls with interior walls insulated, minimum 6 inch concrete pours for flat work, conduit runs for future low voltage wiring and home automation, exterior french drains around the foundation whether needed or not ect, ect...
Quote:
On 2004-01-02 13:16, The-Rehabinator wrote:
I would like to see you post if possible on the proper way to install a second and third layer as you stated just to see if I have been missing anything. I know you don't recommend doing those layers but if you had a gun to your head...
Eventually I will be having a custom home built for us to live in the mountains, I have been acumilating a list of features and standards that I want it built to, I can't wait to deal with all the looks and arguments I'm going to get when I give them my list of requirements, such as all 20 amp circuits as minimum, 2x6 walls with interior walls insulated, minimum 6 inch concrete pours for flat work, conduit runs for future low voltage wiring and home automation, exterior french drains around the foundation whether needed or not ect, ect...
Although I have had a gun to my head....it wasn't over shingle. (smile).
I will post the proper way to install a second layer of shingles this weekend.
On your dream home it will be an interesting post. Although with the 20 amp circuits I will advice you to only load the circuit for what is called for....oversizing a circuit breaker will cause a fire very quickly....not being able to trip when it should.
NC
I think you should go for the 30 year roof because by the time this thread ends, you will need that 30 yr warranty.
John (LV)
Being a roofing non-expert I would say go 30 years. The only reason to go less is the arguement that you will invest the savings into another property, which someone mentioned. I am sure you consider yourself an owner that takes care of his properties. So, put the 30 year roof on, AND invest in another property. I am sure you can do both, meaning it is not an "either or" decision. Whether you keep the properties or not, IT MAKES SENSE. If you sell, you can explain to your buyer that a 30 year roof was put on because that is the way you take care of your properties. If you hold, you can take comfort in knowing the job is done right , and does not have to be redone for a long time.
the exception is if you are starting out. Keep expenses as low as possible and continue to build. In that case it IS an "either or" decision.
[addsig]
i have to ask a few simple questions...How old are these houses and are they in a high wind area and does the temp get over 85?If they are over 20 years old and in windy areas the 20yr 3-tab won't do a bit of good! yes Home Depot does sell them for 6.97 a bundle and the laminate are 11.97 but realize that they are cheap for a www.reason.Call your local supply co that sells to Home Depot and they will open an acct for you and you will be eligible for a disc.
Mike