Re: A LEMON: Who Do I Call Re: Drywall Cracks And Dampness/cracks
hi- we bought a lemon alright. house was completed 1 yr.ago. new developers had taken over an operation, . home didn't pass inspection on grounds of needing more supports in basement. floor was uneven. corrections made, and had new troubles-. and a lot of wrangling,and threatening to get NOFMA inspectors in (who were OUTSTANDING, by the way) we finally got a cupped and popping floor replaced.
now there is serious drywall cracking where ceiling meets wall, and at joists and down all beams, etc.
from what i've read, it could be a structural problem? why else would we have this drywall cracking? the moisture issue caused the wood floor problem before, but since we've replaced, we've had a constant 67 degree temp.
also, a 3" chunk of grout around fireplace has become completely dislodged, and there are other solid cracks along the bottom row of stones inside.
i have yet to check anything in the basement.
the painter, who is afraid that he'll "get in trouble for talking too much",( in his words, )told me he was approached by the new developers, who were supposedly concerned about the cracks, and asked what they were from. he told them among other things, that there was now too much paint at that edge, since the interior had to be repainted too many times. they then asked how they should best rectify the problem, and when the painter told them that they should rip out the drywall and start over to do it right, (to the tune of $3900) they balked at it, and said just do the minimum, and be done with it.
the painter gave me his take on what is going on, and he thinks that also, the house is moving. he pointed out how uneven the framing is; he also mentioned that the type of drywall tape that was used is possibly the reason for the dampness at the cathedral ceiling?
other notes: drywall nails started to loosen on support column at stairway, along with cracking running all the way up that column.
who should i call to nip this one in the bud? all this delaying to fight for every single repair costs me more time (and mortgage payments)- I just want to flip this thing !!
this
How unfortunate! Should have had the house inspected? What now?
I think you should get a lawyer and go after the builder. you will have inspectors on your side.
However, if you bought the house at a great discount, the builder may have "dumped"it on you, and the discount could work against you in front of a judge.
Similarly, if you were intending to live in the house yourself, the judge would surely be in your favor, saving you from an unscrupulous builder. But if this is an investment, he may view both of you as sharks. A good lawyer can help you with all this, I think.
I wish you well.
Dan
Great point Dan, about dumping the house onto an unsuspecting buyers.
This happened recently in a new development nearby......builder / developer put up some cookie cutters and sold them cheap.
When problems arose within a few years....he asked them to put in writing what they thought they were worth.............they were foolish enough to ask some outrageous price to which he laughed.
He told them he would see them in court......of course he had his ammunition that they were worth more then he sold them for.......there was no financial or justifiable loss they could account for.
The developer by the way is also a local attorney here in Cabarrus County.
Anyway....Pegula,
It appears to me the painter is a busy body......unless his expertise is also in the field of drywall........I would not put a whole lot of stock in his information or advice, from the comments he made to you he knows very little about drywall.
I dont know what "type" of drywall he is talking about.....you have various thicknesses, fire ratings, and exterior coatings.....but to say that they used the wrong type of drywall and or drywall tape that caused cracking is assinine.
Cracking is from movement ...........and that can be from normal house "breathing" to overloads on a wall or floor.
The cupping on wood floors is often a result of high humidity in the house..........however this also happens during the summer when the relative humidity is higher. On solid wood flooring this is more prevalent.......engineered products are less effected by it.
By the way.....dont confuse temperature with humidity. It is the humidity that effects the house more then the temperature.........to the point, doors stick, drywall can be effected somewhat, as well as the moisture content of the wood itself.You can buy a cheap hygrometer at Radio Shack that will track the humidity levels of your house throughout the year. In the winter its just the opposite, there is less humidity in the house.
Grout can dislodge for a number of reasons but most likely it is probably a structural issue.
I would consult first with a structural engineer.......and then with report in hand......I would go to the builder / developer and give them a chance to rectify the problem. The engineer should be able to give you a course of correction and based upon that, let the builder / developer get whoever they want as long as that course is adhered to. It should not matter to you how much or little it cost as long as it is done right.
If they fail to address your concerns then consult with a lawyer as well as the contractors board (if there is one in your state......I didnt check), BBB, and anyone else who will listen to you.
NC_Yank
[ Edited by NC_Yank on Date 11/17/2004 ]
NC_Yank,
Good post, particularly the input on the clueless know-it-all painter.
But...... I think you should revisit this one:
"..........however this also happens during the summer when your AC is putting moisture into the air. "
Of course, A/C DEHUMIDIFIES the conditioned space.
But you're right when you say this feller needs the services of a good structural engineer.
"Dampness at the Cathedral ceiling."???
First thing I would do is look at the roof. Ridge vent, and proper roofing installation are mysteries to too many roofers.
Pegula, one item in your post is more telling than any other, IMO.
To wit: "i have yet to check anything in the basement. "
I suggest you will need to get a little more motivated to get to the bottom of your problem. YOU can see the house. WE cannot. GO INTO THE BASEMENT. Look for water intrusion, dampness on walls, cracks around lally columns, condesation on glazing or water pipes.
Water intrusion calls for repairs. Minor elevated humidity may be resolved with a dehumidifier.
[addsig]
thanks all. based on your responses, i need to clarify my situation- i have a crawl space, not a basement. (will check it out asap;any special things to look for,given this new scenerio?
Dan:we did have the house inspected once before closing, and again after the floors were fixed. what i am dealing with here is the builder, who has taken over this development, trying to spend as little as possible so he can move on and do his new homes. this house was finished in a hurry by contractors who weren't getting paid at the end, and obviously didn't care how anything was done. (and how it passed 2 inspections is beyond me!) null
i got a real education on the humidity issue re: the floors from NOFMA- i just used the wrong word when i said "temperature"
at any rate, i'm off to the crawl space this weekend in tandem with locating a structural engineer. any further insights would be helpful!! being a newbie stinks :-( pegula
Your right Mike, I stand corrected.......the humidity does rise in summer even with the AC on.......I suspect a certain amount is still being pulled back into the house due to the stack / vaccum effect. Especially with crawl spaces. Funny, the moisture you are trying to get out of the house is still getting back into the house. A vicious cycle.
NC
Aahh, a crawlspace. Cupped flooring lends me to believe there may well be moisture issues in the crawlspace.
Most importantly, make sure the ground around the home is graded so surface water is shed away from the foundation. Gutters and downspouts should also project roof water well away from foundation.
Less water against the foundation = less moisture in the crawlspace.
Conditioned or ventilated crawlspace?
"Conditioned" means the walls are insulated and the volume is heated and cooled like the interior of the home.
"Ventilated" means the floor is insulated, and the volume is more or less exterior to the home.
Either way, excessive moisture in the volume will migrate into the house.
Also, elevated moisture makes wood even more palatable to wood destroying organisms, and termites.
Ergo, it is very important to mitigate moisture issues.
Look for the same issues:
Condensation on water pipes and A/C ducts.
Water intrusion or dampness on foundation walls.
Also, black mold spores on joists and beams. Not "toxic," but indicative of elevated moisture on an ongoing basis.
In the conditioned space, you should have drainage under a rock bed, with a vapor barrier.
Ventilated crawl should have a 6 mil plastic sheet vapor barrier with about 90% coverage on the dirt. Perimeter should not be covered, to encourage water vapor to escape near vents.
Actually, I assume you have a ventilated crawlspace, as the conditioned ones are "newer" and less frequently used.
If there is elevated moisture, you may look at the following:
In complicated crawlspaces, piers and beams , ductwork, and offsets in the foundation walls may disrupt air flow and reduce the effects of ventilation.
Also, landscaping which covers ventilators on the exterior may inhibit air flow.
Make sure ventilators are open or you will create great environment for mold and mildew. i have seen 7 year old houses which had mold hanging like garlands and joists I could stab a screwdriver through because vents were kept closed. Home owner ignorance.
Might invest in automatic ventilators which open and close as temperature goes above and below 45 degrees. Gives ventilation with reduced chance of water pipe freeze.
Might consider the addition of a powered ventilator fan, on a humidistat, if problem is hard to mitigate.
Good luck,
[addsig]
At what point in the construction did your builder 'pick up the project'? If it was after the foundation work, then he inheirited it and didn't cause it. Framing, roofing, drywall, paint, ect don't have anything to do with what you are experiencing, the house was screwed up right from the start before the cement truck pulled up.
When did you buy it? Insome states there is a 1 year warranty on the house so the contractor has to make repairs or you can sue. Check if your state has that.
Also, if the house passed inspection and you can prove it has structural and other issues, go see the county permitting and planning as it should not have and there should be something you could do there.
hi everyone, i've ordered framing plans and reports from inspections from township and have an appt. seet up with a struct. engineer.
meanwhile, the developer is being downright nasty. after every message i leave him, he leaves me one claims he can't understand mine, because they're soo loong and soo very ,very excited." and after that, he will without a doubt proceed to call my husband, and say that he couldn't talk to me, since i was "so upset". this is clearly a pattern that has worked for him in the past to get others off his back, since he's done it every time, and it clearly is hogwash. once i armed myself with some knowledge re: the flooring probs. he backed off without a whimper.
(note: he's just called my husband again a few minutes ago, whining that the "dingbat is hysterical again",etc.-- the truth of the matter is that i'm accountable for this project.-my spouse has his own thing going. then, told him that there's nothing wrong with the house; that he replaced the floor, that the painter has retouched everything, and that it has passed 5 or 6 inspections, etc.
he said"you bought the house "as is".... my husb. mentioned the 1 yr. warranty....)
earlier,
his response on his messages to me are to quote exactly:
"if that house were shifting,, you'd have major structural cracking down the center of that living room. you have a little minor settling in there. re: your fireplace grout cracking, if your stone were falling off that would be a different thing."
this man is working from "intimidate to get them to shut up" and "admit to nothing". obviously, he doesn't want me to get anyone in to look at anything!!!
he wants both of us to sit down with him this weekend(i can see it now-"there's nothing wrong with the house,-bla-bla-bla) :-x
Wait a minute. You bought the house As-Is? I'm confused now. Did you buy it from the builder or another owner? How do you buy a house as-is and then want the builder to repair something?
built by one builder/dev. who got into fin. trouble, and bought out by another builder/dev. - this home was "complete" and had been on the market when the new guys took over the develpm'nt.- they since have built homes on other lots as package deals only.
in the dev's. mind, he gave us a "deal" on the house, because we had a commitment to buy the lot next door - this "deal next door " was hand-written in at the closing, with clearly-stated loopholes upfront
( i.e. "we promise to buy the lot next door, unless in the few weeks that you are putting pressure on us to commit to the lot or let it go, "you can find a house plan that we like in the right price range."
So with all that "pr-r-r-r-ressure".... we decided to let them give it to some other "lucky" contenders!!!! (you know the racket!!!) boy, were they surprised;
within 6 weeks 3/4 of the lots were sold, and now, i believe with all but a few sold, these guys are in great shape. but, they're still trying to get mileage out of their initial stories.
when he says, we sold you the house "as is." ( what the heck does that mean?!) as is , meaning he's off the hook? "as is" meaning just what????
"when he says, we sold you the house "as is." ( what the heck does that mean?!) as is , meaning he's off the hook? "as is" meaning just what????"
I assume there is a mountain of paperwork, including a contract for this purchase.
If you bought it "as-is," it should be clearly documented in your sales agreement. It might be time to review the agreement.
He cannot sell as is, unless the buyer agrees to buy as is.
Did you BUY the property "as is?"
[addsig]
you are so right, mike. i wil check it out right away. i have absolutely NO recollection of ANY conversation, much less ANYthing inwriting that we signed off on, or were even requested to sign off on, unless i'm totally losing my mind. - this the first i've heard of it.
when you say " mountain of paperwork, do you refer to our "closing" paperwork only, or that and his paperwork that he gathered when he bought out the old builder/dev. ?
mike, worst case scenario, i HAVE lost my mind: jeeeez-louise!!! :-? doesn't a one-year warranty cover FAULTY stuff that occurs? = i would think so :-(
mike: just checked --whew! there is no such clause anywhere!!
the b/dev wants to meet w/ us tom. before i get the struct. eng. out there..
what's my next move, since his will be to scold me for "getting all excited and panicking" as he puts it?
I don't purport to be the most knowledgeable poster here, but I believe you have an "Offer to Purchase" which should also include documentation of any counteroffers, and a final agreement.
Terms of sale are included in there, and should prominently note, "As is," if I am not mistaken.
I would think it difficult to get a deep discount to market with a full "bumper to bumper" warranty in a subdivision that is building out rapidly.
Truly, how can you do a deal and not know whether it is as is, or even what that means?
You may find the builder is working with you to the extent he has so far because he wants to minimize bad word of mouth in a good subdivision.
[addsig]
i realize that i don't know much at all about a lot of things here, mike. there's a "first one" for everybody. i came here for advice; if i already knew everything, i wouldn't be here. i know enough about what "as is" means to understand that we didn't agree to it... my whole point is that this guy is "lulling" -we are into our 6th month of our 1yr. warranty, and the floors were just finished last week after they fought with us for months and months on it.
hopefully down the road i'll have learned from helpful people here-
" doesn't a one-year warranty cover FAULTY stuff that occurs? = i would think so :-( "
Sure it should. But a warranty is only a good as the character of the issuer, or your lawyer.
Sorry if I seemed curt, but when you asked "what the heck does that mean" about as is, you really got my attention. To my mind, "As is" and "As is, where is" are straightforward, and quite fundamental, designations indicating you are buying whatever condition the property is, with no recourse for repairs, etc.
I.e., Yes, he would be "off the hook." And I would think that would be reasonable for a developer who is selling someone else'sproduct.
Glad to hear that you did not buy as is.
Hang in there, and hold him to your contract.
[addsig]
thanks for explaining yourself, mike..... thank you... i've been very appreciative of everything from everyone.... i'll let you know what happens......
In your paperwork - does it say you buy as-is. Although, in some states as-is means nothing as the warranty is required. Check the laws of your states regarding new developments and developers.
no, it doesn't anywhere.
As confused as you seem to be about all of this, when do you think it would be prudent to contact an attorney? From what you have posted here it seems to me that you are way over your head and at some point you are rapidly approaching the point where the final out come of the cost of hiring someone who knows what he is doing will be much cheaper than to keep doing what you have been doing for the last 6 months.