I Fired My Sub-contractor!!
Warning...Long rant!!
We contracted on 12/2. He was supposed to get the job done in 30 days. It is now 59 days later and he isn't even close. We've gone around and around about his pace, but it's kinda hard to get the work done when you don't show up. I made a BIG mistake...knew better as I was going in. I paid him too much up front for materials and labor. I know he took the money to fund some other jobs. Meanwhile, mine suffered.
Then I gave him a check to purchase some wood trim, called him the next day and told him NOT to install the trim yet, and he took it upon himself to CASH my check and spend it. And none of it was spent on trim or anything for MY property. He tried to say "well, you told me not to do the trim." I told you NOT to do the trim, I didn't tell you NOT to buy the trim, and I didn't tell you to spend MY money. Hopping mad! Then I told him last week that this Wed. would be his last day. Why was he at my property WORKING today? My son and I made him leave. He was not happy about it. He demanded to know when he'd get paid. For what??? He hadn't finished ANYTHING. He's been paid a chunk for work not done. He insisted that he has to be allowed to finish his job. I don't think so. Besides at his pace, it would be like summer before he finished. The holding costs would strangle me.
My contract was for him to tear off and put on a new roof, demolish and rebuild three walls, (one wall needed a support beam) two ceilings, bump out three closets(all requiring new drywall), lay carpet, lay linoleum, install eight light fixtures, install two exterior doors and four interior doors, repair windows, repair the hose bib, de-funk a dog "urined" floor, put up gutters, install new kitchen cabinets and counter top and do the plumbing for same, install a new toilet, and blow in insulation in the attic. No painting. All he got done in 59 days was the roof, the walls, the ceilings, and the closets. And the "new" roof didn't pass inspection because he did not put in vents -- which I kept telling him he needed to do. He could have built a new house in 59 days!!!
Or am I wrong to think he could have done more in that span of time? I just calculated that based on his productivity, or lack of, there was no way he'd get the rest done anytime soon. Plus, he's out of money for materials and labor and tried to hit me up for some more cash. NOT!!!
This man would not take constructive criticism, no matter how sweetly it was presented. He didn't like my son and I coming by as often as we did. Initially we came because we were excited and wanted to see the progress. Then we started coming to see if he was getting ANY work done at all. He lied about his hours. Little did he know that one of us came by throughout the day and night only to not find him there and NOT see any progress. He whined about the drawings my son gave him, which were only meant to show which walls came down and went up. He claims the drawings didn't show where the electric outlets went. Yet, in the next breath, he'd say "I've been doing this kinda work for 32 years!" To which I said, well darnit (that's the toned down expression), YOU should know where to put the outlets. YOU tore down the wall that had outlets. YOU put up the wall...guess what...it needs outlets!
He's angry. Friends are telling me to watch out for sabotage. He went to the house several hours after I let him go and took some copper plumbing line and several smoke detectors. I changed the locks. I'm prepared to go to court if he presses me for more money.
My son feels bad 'cause he referred him.
I told my son we both learned some valuable lessons.
You ever just want someone to just "go away?"
[ Edited by makingaliving on Date 01/29/2004 ]
sorry to hear that. I hope some of the lessons learned are: NEVER pay up front, and draw up a contract stating when the work is to be done, and have penalties for each day it is not done after the deadline. I hope you have better luck in the future.
makingaliving,
Glad to meet you.
Here is how I do it. They have companies that handle the control of construction projects.
Normally they are referred to as Contstruction Control Companies (CCC). They recieve a fee for handling the project.
The contractor starts the project, someone from the construction control company inspects every phase, when the phase is completed the CCC issues a check to the contractor for that phase, this happens from the first phase to the completion of the project.
Sometimes a 3rd party is very beneficial, so you don't have to vent about a contractor and become frustrated. You can use a CCC for one house, or several houses, on one building or several buildings.
If this is not acceptable to a contractor or sub contractor, then your trim money will always probably wind up down at Joe's Bar & Grill.
John $Cash$ Locke
The best part is that you probably haven't seen the last of him, if he is a real loser, I'm sure he is going to file a mechanics lein on your property and stop you from reselling it.
Also depending on your states contract laws you might not have gotten rid of him the right way. Sometimes it is tricky to get rid of a contractor without openning yourself up to future issues. You might actually owe him money for work that he didn't do if you didn't actually allow him to do it.
Also, you should have gotten a lein release form signed when you negotiated getting rid of him. When I say negotiated that is exaclty what it means, it just isn't that simple to get rid of a contractor. It is really a negotiation at that point of how much is it going to cost me to get rid of you and not have you show up down the road to screw me over such as taking me to small claims court or filing a mechanics lein.
I hope you get lucky and never see him again.
By the way, what criteria did you use to evaluate that this was the guy you wanted to trust with your finacial future on this project? Whatever it was you might want to do the exact opposite next time, since the odds are that you could have closed your eyes and picked a name at random out of the phone book and been better off.
There is a contract. I drew it up and it specifically states that work is to be completed by a certain date or a $150 per day penalty would be assessed. It also states that I can terminate the contract at any time, for any reason, and that we would settle based on work completed. I counted the work he has finished and what he's been paid, and it amounts to just about $1200 that he OWES me. That's not too bad. But in his mind, I owe him. I owe him because I didn't let him finish the job. I didn't let him finish the job because he wasn't finishing the job in a timely manner.
No more "casual" relationships with these folks. Strictly business from here on out.
Oh boy...there was more drama today, but I don't wanna write another book. Thanks all of you for reading through my rantings. 'preciate it!
[ Edited by makingaliving on Date 01/30/2004 ]
I have been down this road more than I care to talk about. I hope you learn the first time cause I didn't.
THE BAD -
Go to Radio Shack and spend $19 on this alarm that they have, it has a key pad and looks VERY real! It also has a 100 Decibal Alarm on it with motion sensor. It takes batteries and screws on the wall, that's it. Scratch off the very small "Radio Shack" logo on the bottom corner and borrow someones ADT or Brinks security sign. Put that in the front yard. This has worked very well for me when I know I have a problem. they break in, the alarm goes off and they think it's a matter of minutes until the police will show. What can I say........$19 well spent. This won't help your exterior or windows, but it does keep them from spray painting the entire frick'n house on the inside. Yes, this happens.
THE GOOD -
You fired him... Good for you, it would have just got worse like chasing money at the black jack table. You just got to walk away and deal with whatever happens. My only advice I can give that might have improved your situation is....... I have had nothing good ever come by yelling at these people. You are asking for a fight or better, a lawsuit. I have heard of landlords paying a tenant $100-200 to leave quick and peaceful... I truly believe there is wisdom in that. What's a $100 when someon is mad at you and ready to doze your property when they are poor and have nothing to lose. You my freind have everything to lose, you own property!
Good luck
gtrzndrums
I have had a similar experience. This is how I have chosen to rectify it.
-First I get a bid on the WHOLE project.
-Then I divide the work up into labor and materials.
-After that we divid the work AGAIN into rooms
-I buy all materials (I have several employees in my other business so I send my enventory mgr to get the stuff)
-Then we agree on a labor price per room. thats right PER ROOM.
-I pay for labor as each room is finished. After I inspect the room I will cut a check for the labor portion for that room.
-Then that room is taped up door jamb and air duct. Now we start the next room.
- I start with the lowest priced rooms and save the expensive jobs for last.
I have to say some guys have thought it was weird but I explain to them it is no different than if all i had was one room to do and that was all. The only difference is there are 7 jobs to do. just only one-at-a-time!!
It is working fab!!! I had one guy say he didnt want to do the reast because he had gotten a "big" job. So i said fine, paid him for finnishing that room, taped it up and called some one else to start over. It is just that now there is one less job to do.
[addsig]
I would file a police report so there is something on record. It will do 2 things. Put him on notice and you will have something on record if he puts a lien on your house or takes you to small claims court.
You can decide if you want to file the police report for trespassing or for theft or both.
I would also take a video of all the work he did and did NOT do. You of course should also save the inspector saying the roof did not pass inspection.
File a complaint aginst him with the state or whoever issues the contractors licenses in your area. Check and see if he is even licensed too.
As far as how fast he was going. The last roof I did (have only done 4 and am NOT highly skilled) was on a 1200 square foot house did a complete tear off of all shingles and all plywood and replaced.
Took me less than a month working by myself only doing it after work and on the weekends. So to me YES he was VERY slow and more importantly he missed his own self imposed deadline.
On the biggy jobs like multiunits or multicommercial, most of the lenders that I have worked with use vouchers. You get one when you present proper labor releases and material releases. I require all my subs prior to tender to accept an inspection visit etc. from me.
I follow a pretty standard contract and I do insert penalties for over runs in time.
Mainly I have a line chart which I adjust on a daily basis so I know if I am ahead or behind.
The minute an aberation begins I see it and consult with the sub. If he can show where he will be back on schedule I will usualy accept. But I will be there. If he cannot I usualy will terminate him and he and I get together and I pay him off.
I have a little book in which reside the names and telephone numbers of all the subs I have on call. Usualy the replacement is on job within three days. If not I will structure a crew, buy a whip and a bullhorn and show up myself.
There have been times when we went too tight on a job and I have had to insert full job management and as they say lead the parade. Usualy there are more qualified subs. So I just substitute them in.
I never fight with the workers, If someone gets into someones face on the job site. I offer to fight them, they get laughing so hard the tension is broken, they hand me my cane and the beat goes on.
If my sterling crew members get drunk and put in jail I get them out. I go down post the bail, give them the long lecture all the way home. Talk to their wives who wish to kill them and stay involved with them all.
Usualy one big happy family. I teach the highly qualified Russian Engineers how to get along with the Latino Diggers and they all teach me the values and goodies of their individual cultures.
I like it, and if someone starts to screw up. I stop it quick. The essence of good construction crewing. BE THERE.
Reflecting Lucius
Sorry to hear about your problems. First, I'm going to say that 30 days to do all the work you described really doesn't seem like enough time, at least to have a job that's done properly. You also have to take into account that if anything needs to be inspected and signed off by the city, your contractor would have to call for inspections which are normally done on the inspectors time, not your time or your contractors time. Albeit he may be a poor example of a contractor, things do come up and problems with inspectors are one of them.
As a rule of thumb it's never a good idea to pay a contractor in advance for materials and NEVER for work that hasn't been started. Should the contractor ask for money for materials, suggest he call in the order for the materials and you pay for them at the material yard, that way you know that the material is coming. The typical way to pay a contractor is via progress payments. By keeping your contractor focused on specific projects (like the roof and maybe the closet expansion) you would have had a better way to determine his progress payments and monitor his work/completion.
Before hiring a contractor, always check with your states contractors license board to make sure he is licensed, his license is active, and that he is bonded and insured. The license board will can also tell you if he has had any problems or complaints against his license.
As for your problems, you have several ways of recourse:
1) File a complaint with the contractors license board.
2) Go after his bond (may or may not be able to do in your state)
3) If all else fails, bring him to court.
If you do nothing else, at least file a complaint with the contractors license board. If he's done this to you, he's probably done this before and will do it again until he is stopped.
By the way, I don't think it's possible to send someone to jail for cashing your check and spending the money on something other than materials for your remodel. It's a civil case.
Good luck,
[addsig]
Have the police file a report,and place a trespass bond against the contractor. You may also want to file a suit against the contractor in small claims court to recover your $1,200.00. Also report him to the state contractor board.
-------------------------------Quote--------------
I would file a police report so there is something on record. It will do 2 things. ------------------------------------------------------
What police hase to do with a civil meter?
Contractor = Contract. No contract no court so I wouldn't worry about the legal technicalities to much. (My understanding is that you didn't have contract with that guy)?
At this point, my suggestion to you would be to simply send him a certified letter in which you'll state that he violated your agreement in such and such way costing you unnecessary $x, xxx for time related damages and you therefore requesting the following X amount of $ for that and $x,xx for molding material received on Dec XX, 2003 and you add all you need on top of them. This is your "police report" except that police usually don't get involved in civil meter, meaning you'd not get it even if you call them. In case he sues you, you counter sue and file the claim against his bond, but this probably wont be necessary because properly prepped letter would do the trick buy explaining the future order of battle.
Raze your cannons but don't fire just yet~!
[ Edited by omega1 on Date 01/31/2004 ]
Omega...I have a contract. I drew it up myself using the samples provided by my local REI club.
Wheeler Deeler...your method sounds interesting. Do you get many objections?
Regarding the time factor. HE SAID he could get it all done in 30 days. I threw in an additional week, with a bonus incentive if he got done on time. Then there was one additional week thrown in as the absolute last week for completion before the $150 day penalty kicked in. He didn't hustle to get the bonus, and he didn't seem concerned about the $150 a day. I really am a reasonable person and would have happily put aside formality if I had seen steady progress. But day after day, very little was getting done. One beautiful Saturday, he came in at 11am and slathered some drywall mud on a small section of the kitchen. He was gone by 12:30. That was it for the weekend.
He's livid. Eyes blazing. I ran into him at the HD while picking up materials with my new sub. He didn't speak. When we left to load the truck, he circled the parking lot - eyeballing us. I left first. Later my sub told me the guy followed him on the highway to the neighborhood.
Creepy. I will file a police report.
Something told me to check on the dumpster in the backyard. He had arranged for it with my money of course. I called and they said they had gotten a request to pick it up TODAY, but they couldn't do it until Monday. So I canceled that pickup, told them to leave it. Shady.
My son called him to arrange meeting tomorrow for final dispensation. He said he'd get back to him. Never did. What's that all about? Suspicious.
I will file a notice of completion on Monday. I had a notice of termination hand delivered to his door. I will send a certified notice tomorrow.
If he tries to file a lien, I will take him to small claims court. If he gets reckless, I will lower the sights on the "cannons."
gtrzndrums- Love the alarm idea!
makingaliving- Sounds like you are doing everything by the letter and protecting yourself.
Do file a report w/ police for trespassing (taking materials) and restraining (sp?) order if he is following you/your workers around like that and causing trouble.
File a complaint against him w/ license board.
About the time issue... He SIGNED the contract and agreed to be done in 30 days or have to pay a $150/day penalty. If he has been doing this for yrs like he said he should have known if it was going to take longer to have that included in the contract. His fault not yours.
He sounds shady to me so keep your eyes peeled.
Good luck,
Veronica M.
Wheelerdealer: How many properties have you remodeled in this room by room manner? Are you remodeling commercial or residential properties?
Update...
Well, I fired that contractor off the job on Thurs., and the new crew had already started working that same day. They were working outside painting the house. They've worked everyday except Friday --weather was bad, we had to shop for materials, etc. I wish you could see how much they've accomplished. It's amazing. Each day, I see significant progress. Each day, I see this project coming to an end. The new guy is pleasant and accommodating. It's like a breath of fresh air. The energy is different. The positive vibes abound. That other guy was so negative and controlling. I am so glad I followed my mind and got rid of him. Now the project is fun again, which is all I wanted...in addition to it selling in the shortest time possible. Because the outside of the house has been painted, people are noticing the house more. A couple of people have already inquired about what I plan to do with the house. No takers yet...but their inquiries were encouraging.
Back in the saddle!!!
Very interesting and yet sad!
I think it might however be a good way for a handy man to work.
I am a contractor and I think that 30 days is not really enough time or close to it for a one man company to get the work completed. I could do it in a couple of weeks with my crew but there is the difference and you pay for the level of trustworthiness and expertise.
Wheeler dealer has an interesting idea but I would probably not work for him as it sounds too "messy", I like all people want to get paid for doing the work with a minimum of hassle. The time it takes me to bid each room separately is not worth the hassle on all but the larger jobs. I would do the work for $35 per man hour or go to my other jobs. This would be true for any decent contractor as he would have plenty of work to do
I have found that you get what you pay for in life. My dad has bought those $10 socket sets for years and is always running to town to get a new one when something strips or breaks. I paid for craftsman and have far fewer problems though the initial outlay was larger.
I can think of may ways to make life miserable for you if I felt I had been mistreated that would cloud the title and small claims court would not come close to the amount of grief you would suffer.
I would get in contact with the state regulatory agency and cover my tender spots. Additionally I would offer $200 for signing a lien release if it comes to that. Much cheaper than standing on principle.
mOst contractors are honest, I think it is the few that muddy the water.
Frankly looking at the job from across the entire United States, I would still say that is not a One Man Job. Of course our labor problems may be different then yours.
My major labor pool come from Central America, the language we use is basic Spanish with funny Indian words and lots of Word Float and Mutation. I get them usualy fresh out of the desert. I teach starting with the tape measure and by the time I get them to the job site they can call cuts for a framing crew. They are smart and intelligent it is just that their early lives have been spent chopping away at green things that grow.
Usualy after a few days on the job I start to specialize them into trades. I teach a tenth of a trade. and let them perform, then a little latter the next part and so it goes. If have a man over six months he pretty well knows the face of the trade, not all of the unusual parts but enough.
If I have done a good job they love the work, take a pride in it and within two to four years, they are one of my subs and now I have to get them legalized and a license. For that they have to take an examination as to the trade and a few of the laws. I teach that and I teach by rote. Soon another business man contractor joins the list
This gives me an ongoing list of subs.
Now I got to start all over and teach how to cut metal doorways and windows and how to join these big 40 foot boxes. A whole new trade. You would have died watching me an 81 year old cripple learning how to use a Plasma cutter. I had to learn, how else can I teach.
I find the essence of good contractor relationships is being straight and caring for your people. The rest comes easy.
I always run a line chart which shows where I am from start date to finish date and inserted fudges. My costs are on the attached page and they run across in line also. I can match day by day my costings and my times. I can spot an upcoming problem and either throw money at it or people. With my kind of luck it is usualy both. It is a pleasure watching something get done and the acid test, done right.
Lucius
And,
I thought for a moment should I say what I mean, but then I had no choice: Mr. Lucius post above hold the secrets WHY Brit's still rule, manage, govern, represent or uphold the world's affaire after they lost "their great legal" empire more then 50 years ago.
"They are smart and intelligent it is just that their early lives have been spent chopping away at green things that grow. "
Like Shakespeare from Canoga Park.... Two Tombs up for Emperor Lucius and still counting... 3... 4 .... hole hand! In New York, we used to use Polaks ( immigrants from Poland) and they are real diamonds in comparison to the class Lucius works with. Since I moved on the West Coast I've been thinking if I should bring together a crew of this guys from Chicago, Illinois or New York. My infinite patients is running out with above mentioned subs who call them self carpenters and use no level. IN time when I need to do a good quality job on the expensive custom homes, I cant simply continue to accept all costly screw ups such as flood in a brand new bathroom the first time new homeowner go to take the bath or the 5,000 entrance doors that doesn't open right. IN my experience, workers form down south are only good labor. Anything technical, good luck! [ Edited by omega1 on Date 02/05/2004 ]
[quote]
On 2004-01-31 02:15, omega1 wrote:
-------------------------------Quote--------------
I would file a police report so there is something on record. It will do 2 things. ------------------------------------------------------
What police hase to do with a civil meter?
_____________________________
Omega is right about the police report.
I was a police officer for about 10 years and contracts, oral or written have nothing to do with the police, nor should they. It is in fact a civil matter and you should pursue those avenues as others have wisely stated.
As a contractor myself, I despise these type of slimmy contractors. I whole heartedly advise you to go after this contractor. Document everything and contact the BBB as well as the state contractor board.......if their is one in your state.
NC
The laundry list of work to be done SOUNDS more extensive than the actual work required. Plus, he initially had two other guys working with him. I knew, and I see it now with my new crew, that a crew that shows up can get the job done. He just didn't show up.
I have a fairly good idea of what things should cost, so I did not haggle over his initial price. I agreed to it and he agreed to get the work done in the 30 days. This house is only 1500 sq ft, and not every room required work. In 59 days, he had only done about a 1/3 or so of the work.
To settle with this man, I had him to go through his contract, cross off what he'd finished, do the math on the balance owed. He saw, like I did, that very little was owed him. In the interest of fairness...and just basically to make him go away...I allowed for some work he did "without my expressed permission." So he walked away with a payment of sorts (he came up with the amount) --AFTER I had him sign a Lien Waiver. The relief I experienced was immediate. My new crew is PROVING that I was not wrong about the pace of the work. They make that other guy look like a slug crawling on concrete.
Sure it cost me a "little" more, but it was worth it to me, and cheaper in the long run, to pay him to get out of my property and out of my life.
Tow part question: 1) Many of you have mentioned the contracts you use. How can I (and everyone else on this forum who is interested) get a generic copy?
2) I'm about to start an expensive and major work on a rehab project (structural problems) and would like to protect myself from a lawsuit as well as the problems many of you described. When getting bids on the job, some contractors said the job is too dangerous for them and they passed...naturally, this has me concerned about those who accepted the job. They'll be working under a huge, heavy cement slab that is currently at risk for falling. Any pointers on necessary steps I should take, such as specific language in a contract in the event someone gets hurt or worse on this job?
I got my basic contract from my local REI group...then I added some things.
This slab -- are you planning to keep it? Why not hire a professional demolition company to remove it? Or if you plan on keeping it, get lots and lots of insurance.
Quote:
On 2004-02-04 22:04, Lufos wrote:
I had to learn, how else can I teach.
ILucius <IMG SRC="images/forum/smilies/icon_cool.gif"> <IMG SRC="images/forum/smilies/icon_cool.gif">
Quote:
On 2004-02-05 11:44, kimander wrote:
Tow part question: 1) Many of you have mentioned the contracts you use. How can I (and everyone else on this forum who is interested) get a generic copy?
2) I'm about to start........... When getting bids on the job, some contractors said the job is too dangerous for them and they passed...naturally, this has me concerned ........... Any pointers on necessary steps I should take, such as specific language in a contract in the event someone gets hurt or worse on this job?
Make sure everyone is insured, including you, and I would suggest you have an engineer involved throughout the process and that no shortcuts are taken. Make sure that all subs follow the engineers plan. If the job as dangerous as you say, you should consult a lawyer........if things do go wrong.....you will be seeing one anyway
Stay away from the low bids, too.
[ Edited by NC_Yank on Date 02/05/2004 ]
Now I remember why I started my own homeimprovement company. This post brought back BAD memories of hiring friends, relatives, neighbors, ect.
Lori
[addsig]