Is It Worth It?
Yesterday I replied to a post to justify the costs associated with different trades, in particular roofing.....which is one of the more dangerous trades.
My view is that it is silly for an REI to attempt to take shortcuts, such as using the unlicensed and uninsured to work on ones investment property or even their personal property for that matter.
I would have never thought that this would have hit so close to home.
Today at approximately 2 pm, one of my best friends fell off a roof and was transported to the hospital.
Today at 3 pm I was at the hospital where they pronounced him dead from internal hemorraging.
Today at 4pm I was at his mothers house with a friend explaining what had happened.
Today at 6pm I was consoling a friend that is blaming himself for not being able to catch him in time and taking on such a worthless cheap job that that paid very little.
By the way, the client was close friends with the deceased. What do you think is going through their mind right now?
Mitch was a rare breed........he not only knew how to do every phase of construction in the business........his craftmanship was second to none.
I often got on him for charging people to little for his services. Even though he carried w/c and gl insurance at times (often times he would let it lapse, which is why my businesses carries if even though by law I am not required) he would often only charge a person $20.00 per hour for his services.
Now that may seem like a lot of money to some but when you consider the insurance, taxes, other overhead expenses that comes out of that $20.00 per hour.........there isnt much left as true profit.
I know that there will be some ignorant cheap skate investors (proper adjectives used) that will try to justify their shortcuts......but this post is more to those that are on my side of the business........the small contractor that thinks there probably wont be any serious injuries or deaths that will occur on his job..................well your wrong.
Is it worth it..................
This weekend we will lay our friend to rest...............I ask that you pray for his family that is left behind.
NC_ Yank
Wow, that is horrible. Sorry for the loss of your friend.
Quote:
On 2004-08-19 10:23, The-Rehabinator wrote:
Wow, that is horrible. Sorry for the loss of your friend.
Thanks Rehab,
I had my guys go over and finish the roofing job.....it only took them 5 hours (larger crew) compared to 3 days that it was going to take Mitch & Tim to do.
I am getting ready to head out again to track Tim down. He was tore up because he felt should have been able to catch Mitch before he fell. Talking to witnesses, Tim ran as fast as he could across the roof and was within 10 feet when Mitch went over the side. There have probably been at least a dozen times in the last 10 years of working with Mitch where he literally saved us from serious injury, even more so with Tim since he worked with him on the high work...........that's what's eatting Tim up.
This week is all messed up.....
next week I will try to go over his records and see what jobs are outstanding and who owes him what.
I know of one commercial job that owes him close to $20,000.00 but I doubt we will be able to collect on that debt.
Mitch was old school, his word was his bond........no contracts, very little receipts...he just would send a final bill after he was finished and wait for the money to come in.
I cant remember the number of times I told him to get organized. On some of the larger jobs I would make up estimates for him but I dont know if he used them.........he was set in his ways.
There are so many lessons that one can glean from this ordeal, but for the small businessman, it would be the need of having things in order.
Anyway I appreciate your thoughtfulness.
Have a good day Rehab, talk to you later.
NC
I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. Losing a peer is one of the toughest things to go through. Sounds like a good guy who'd want you to celebrate his life, not his passing. My thoughts are with you and his family.
NC Yank
I am very sorry to hear about your friend. This business can be very dangerous and more often than not, that is taken for granted. Several years ago, one of my employees, who was a very good all-around man. Wonderful electrician, good carpenter etc. One weekend, he took on a side job for a friend, to roof a house. He ended up falling about 20 feet when his chicken walk let go and he landed on concrete a driveway, shattering both of his heels. He has never worked since and the guy he was doing the side job for, never even tried to help him out. I believe he filed a lawsuit against the guy, but don't think anything has ever come of it yet. As I said earlier, this can be a very dangerous business and all it takes is but a fleeting moment to change one's entire world.
My condolences to you and to your friends family.
Dave
NC
You are absolutely right. Many of the contractors I know can't be competitive if providing health coverage for their people. So it is a commentary on what to look out for when searching for rehabbers to handle projects for investors. Everyone is always looking to keep the costs as low as possible, however, this is one area that can come back to bite you. For investors, make sure you have the adequate liability insurances and try like hell to find rehabbers that can demonstrate proof of medical coverage. Otherwise, it is "proceed at your own risk".
Dave
Thanks Terry,
One thing for people to realize is that "builders risk" does not cover accidents.......at least mine doesnt.
I take out a builders risk policy on every project I do......it covers the dwelling and material if stolen....depending on your policy.
Your right, the contractor is ultimately responsible for what happens on his/her job.
I too am incorporated, however I still carry BR, GL, and WC.....i figure its cheaper to pay the premiums then to pay a lawyer to protect my assets.
One should also sit down from time to time and speak with their agent about what their insurance policy entails.
Many people will go for the cheapest policy........thats not always wise.
At one time when I was performing some of the grading and using larger equipment that I rented.....I relied on the stores insurance policy.......I decided to take it to my agent and she showed me all the loop holes and downside of their policies.
I picked up my own equipment rental insurance for a few years........eventually I stopped doing the work myself and sub it out unless its a small job I can do in a day.
NC
Quote:
.
On 2004-08-23 11:00, NC_Yank wrote:
One thing for people to realize is that "builders risk" does not cover accidents.......at least mine doesnt.
Actually, mine doesn't either by itself. We usually take out a property specific policy at the same time when we request builders risk and I tend to think of both as one policy. And we recommend that the homeowner, if it's a new custom home, take out a policy to protect themselves. Sometimes, their agent can actually just do an extension/addition of their present home covereage instead of a totally seperate one. But since they have to have the insurance eventually anyway, some just go ahead and take out a full policy at the beginning of construction. Some don't do either.
All this may seem like overkill, but I've always been concerned that one major claim would cause my gl to be cancelled, so I like an extra barrier.
Quote: I too am incorporated, however I still carry BR, GL, and WC.....i figure its cheaper to pay the premiums then to pay a lawyer to protect my assets.
I don't think a lawyer can protect assets. My lawyer says not to depend on him for that because it's not up to him
One trend that is concerning us and our lawyer is how so many people are suing even when they have no damages or case simply because they often are settled with by the insurance company just to avoid a lawsuit. Our lawyer represents quite a few doctors and contractors who have chosen to put all their assets in their wives names and drop their ultra expensive liability coverage. Many have had experiences where their insurance droped them or didn't pay and they were sued personally anyway.
I agree about rental equipment stores insurance.
We've begun to structure our corporations so they don't "own" many assets that can be lost through a bogus, unjust lawsuit. One corporation, who does nothing to expose itself to any liability owns the assets and leases them to the other corporation.
We used to not worry about such things, but we're running into more and more absolute nuts. Sorry, I just couldn't find a more suitable, delicate word. I know that often folks don't look at things the same way, but that's why there are contracts. We're running into folks who will totally ignore the contract. It's very difficult to deal with trying to keep a client happy who simply will not be happy.
Take care,
Terry
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Davmille, Perhaps I'm being insensitive, but this seems like a harsh post. NC_YANK just lost a dear friend and I would think the last thing he needs is to hear is that it's the man's own fault for dying and shame on him for leaving his family. It seems a very arrogant thing to imply how you know you would never make such a foolish mistake as getting yourself killed. Perhaps you're the exception, but I've never known a roofer yet who was tied off at every moment and completely "safe". Very few manual labor jobs are entirely "safe". Workmans comp rates for roofers are the highest I think. Some might argue it's not "safe" to drive to work. I wonder how anyone could go through life and consider each step, literally, and wonder if I do this, what will the consequences be. You can take a step, fall and break your neck on level ground. Freak things happen every day. NC_YANK's friend sounded like an extremely responsible person to me who worked hard to treat others fair and provide for his family too. To say it's his own fault he fell after he is dead is, is....I can't really find the right words to say in a public forum. I know everyone can say things that are inappropriate and really mean well. I've done it myself more times that I care to think about it, often not realizing it at the time. In this case, if it were my friend and some "person" said what you said in your post to me in my presence, I'd be sorely tempted to punch him out. Of course this would not be very "responsible."
My family had lunch today with John, our cabinet shop man and friend, who cut off his thumb and damaged some other fingers. The last thing John needed anyone to say to him is he should have been more responsible and this wouldn't have happened. It is the last thing his wife and family would need to hear. I don't know of any human being who has ever lived who doesn't make a mistake, and yes it often has an impact on others. But it really should go without saying that this doesn't make any of us any less responsible, just human. And I just do not understand how your thoughts have helped anyone.
Terry
I don't think that Davmille was being insensitive, I think that he was right on, often the little things left undone are the ones that are the most important. One of my very best friends was killed in a similar situation/accident 3 months ago. I am helping his wife and 2 kids under 3 finish the kitchen project and others he started before he died. Had he been wearing a safety harness he would be finishing his own remodel. I don't feel sorry for him, he is in a great place, I am however sorry for his wife, children, family, friends, and .......me.
Condolences NC, I am truly sorry..
Randall
[addsig]
We seem to have touched on a subject here that has a lot of people thinking. Which is a good thing. Yes, there are times when we all do things that we can look at in retrospect and determine perhaps we should have done something differently. That to me, is what life is mostly about. In fairness to NC's friend, his actions had absolute and definitive consequences. But, most roofers I have known or been associated with, work piece work, or pay by performance rates. And in the vast majority of cases, this type of structure usually precludes them from taking the types of necessary precautions needed to insure their safety. Given a choice, they will usually choose to be unencumbered by a safety harness, so they can be free to move about and maximize their production. Is this wrong? I suppose, in the "big picture" it may be. But the reality is, that given this choice, more often than not, it is the one that most will pick. Large companies, particularly commercial outfits, will insist on more stringent safety practices, primarily because there is more room in the "price" to accomodate it. But by and large, the smaller companies and independents will often forego these safety issues in lieu of more production simply because it enables them to make more in less time. I have learned in this business, shortcuts almost always come back to haunt someone. The greatest shame in all of this, is that it takes something as drastic as what happened here to alert people to the dangers of this type of business. And RARELY, does anyone consider this reality. Usually, until it is too late. There are lessons to be learned through this situation. But honestly, I doubt anyone else will pay them much attention, until after, it has affected them in some personal way. Unfortunate? Yes. Reality? Yes.
Dave