Fixing Up W/o A Permit (resale Ques.)
I recently helped a friend install a hardwood floor and interior siding in his garage. He didn't have a building permit, but since he was doing the work himself and is the homeowner he said that a permit wasn't necessary. Will this affect his taxes or anything when he sells the house?
Yes Dear Friend, a permit is required. But common use is of course otherwise.
I am of course the biggest offender. I used to buy small houses for rental and the first thing I always did is turn the garage into a really nice single, add a bathroom. Install an airconditioner and of course cover the interior walls with a nice drywall at 1/2 inch. tape it and do a good job. Install a little more electrical outlet. Be sure the waste line on the plumbing has at least a 1/4 inch drop per foot otherwise the weir will not contain the waste. I then rent out the garage as a unit. But I leave the door in place and also leave about three feet of storage space. I do everything to code and if heaven forbid some building inspector red tags me I can then file an As Built Plan and once more become a fully law abiding citizen.
When I sell I just list the garage as an unpermited occasion. Most people like the extra unit. A place to park a teenage son who is busy on his own solitary life style. It works.
Cheers Lucius
I would be more concerned with the liability issue, both civil and criminal.
Many local government agencies use "permits" as another way to get tax money.......some of the permits are just plain rediculous......driveway permits for example.........however by permiting a job you are putting a layer of protection between yourself and a judgment.
Any electrical and/or structural work should be done by a professional. Paying a permit fee to have an inspector ensure the work is per code is far cheaper then paying a lawyer to protect you in a criminal or civil case.
NC Yank
PS. Typcially cosmetic work does not require a permit, check with your local building department for more info......
tomisino - if you get friendly with the building dept, you will find that about 85% of homeowners fail to permit the work they do on their house, and about 40% of contractors fail to permit the work they do on their customers houses.
However, understand that those numbers go way down when you look at specific consruction, such as an addition and go way up on items such as putting on gutters or something like that.
Some cities have a permit fee for flushing the toilet twice, some have very few.
The bottom line is any house that is 50 years or older it most likely has work done without a permit, but sells over and over again without a problem.
The exception would be a house with a serious defective item that was done without a permit, if everything is okay, then the permitting will not come up, if there is an issue then permitting can come up.
Also, keep in mind that I have heard of insurance companies withholding fire damage money if a house burns because of wiring done without a permit in place.
When I was young and dumb the first house I ever bought to live in was a fixer upper. I replaced the siding, the roof, moved plumbing drains, vents and waste stacks, added electrical circuits, replaced windows, added a deck, added a fence... all without a single permit. When I sold the house there were no permit issues.[ Edited by The-Rehabinator on Date 03/17/2004 ]
I have worked on some of those "fire insurance" claims. They won't pay of there is an out.
I know of one case where 2-3 o wners ago the owner did his own wiring and 10 years later a fire started, guess who they went after?
I still worry about one house I did 10 years ago. The peace of mind would have been wrth the $125 inspection fee
In many areas, you do not have to get a permit if the work does not cost more than a certain dollar amount or does not involve structural, electrical, or plumbing issues. Call the appropriate city department and ask them what work does not require a permit.
Some towns or municipalities require a Use & Occupancy permit (may be called something else) when resale residential properties are sold. Standard operating procedure is that they check to see if permits were obtained when work was done. No permit, big problem. Can't convey the property without a U&O and municipality won't issue the U&O unless municipal bldg inspector approves the work and permit obtained, albeit after the fact.
Thanks everyone,
Excellent info,I am very grateful for the responses (worked long today or would have replied sooner). The main issue I was wondering about was -house bought at "x" s.f. living space, house sold at "y" living space, no structural changes, not a seperate rental or unit. Isn't there a tax issue here possibly too?
Thanks again and I probably won't be able to post again until tomorrow nite, bed and all.
Tom
Tom, how would you change the liveable square footage without doing any structural work?
Also, tax assessors don't enter you house to assess them, they do it by compariable sales in the neighborhood.
An appraisal would be done to get the new value of the house, they don't look at the history of the house, they look at sq footage, conditions and features and compare them to recent sales in the neighborhood.
I hate how the gov wants a piece of every pie they can get their fingers in. On the other hand I have taken apart a lot of do-it-yourself crap that really should have been inspected. (in other words if you plan on working with out a permit please do it to code!) I don't belive there is a lot the gov can do if they catch you working without a permit. Here they can charge you double for the permit and force you to get it. But the permit is not very expensive ($50 to $150 I think).
Good luck
[addsig]
Maybe The building dept. where you are is not very big or well funded. Where I am working they have lots of inspectors now and they all carry badges. They have plenty of power. They are able to red tag a job in a heartbeat and have the authority to condemn a property.
The permit fees are based on the value of the job.
In my experiance, if you get busted for working without a permit, the inspectors and the building department can make your life very hard. I did work for a developer that had an unlicensed contractor "rat-in" an in-law apartment in a garage. He did all the work to code and did a really nice job. I was working next door doing a gut rehab with plans and permit. I told everyone to keep the darn garage door closed and whenever I was expecting to call for inspections on my project, a heads up. The idiot opened the door just as the inspector was leaving my job. His job got red tagged and the developer ask me if I would get plans and permits together to get a final inspection on the in-law apt. The inspectors made us strip cabinets, drywall and trim to be able to look at the wiring and plumbing. We had to redo a lot of existing stuff that probably would have been OK if if would have been done like a normal job. They just wanted to get punitive and teach a lesson. The major headache was testing the plumbing. It would have been so easy to do it in the beginning. The developer spent $25K remodeling the apt. in the first place. It cost him $35K for me to hassle the plans, permit, demo what was needed, deal with the inspections and repair/replace the finishes.
My best friend from high school lives in Davis, California. I packed up my tools and went to work on a bigger house that he had bought. The first thing I learned was that every property that is sold has to have an inspection by the building department. It's like a "new final" inspection every time a house is bought. These were the most picky inspectors that I have ever dealt with. It was insane. No green tag... no occupancy! No homeowner rat jobs in Davis either.
Most decisions in business are simple risk managment. Permits are just one of those decisions. Do I want to risk getting popped? Can I rat this stuff in and get away with it? Is it worth it?
There are new disclosure laws concerning improvements made to real property when selling property. Does anyone have experiance with this. What do these disclosure laws require a seller to do??
remodeler,
About seller disclosures...
For several years, PA has required sellers to provide buyers with a 4-page disclosure statement. One of the items requires sellers to disclose and describe any additions, alterations or structural changes they've made to the property.
Now the form doesn't specifically ask them to say they got permits, but it does require them to represent that there are no violations of "local law" regarding the property. The affidavit that sellers sign at closing has similar language in it.