Death of A Tenant Question
On Sunday, May 18th, one of my tenants (actually the person who sold me the place) passed away after suffering from cancer. Since everything was pretty much clear prior to her passing as to which one of her kids would be managing her estate and thus her belongings, her adult children were allowed to clean up her apartment and move everything out.
So here's my question. Today, the son who is managing her estate returned her keys. Since I am holding a security depositfrom his mother and have 21 days to settle the account, how much do I have to give him? I'm not trying to screw these people, but it does hurt me somewhat to lose a tenant and lose rent. Plus, since she had been living in that unit for quite a few years, there is a lot of normal wear and tear that I will need to fix that can't be deducted from her security deposit. So, since I was never received 30 days notice which is normally required of vacating tenants due to her death, could I apply that to her security deposit?
Oh, and by the way, the son left me a handwritten note on an envelope that I could have her refrigerator, washer and dryer, all in pretty decent working condition.
FYI, I was originally thinking of just returning the deposit and being done with the whole thing. The purpose of my post is to figure exactly what it is that I'm entitled and/or required to do.
Just do the right thing -- return the entire security deposit. Make the check payable to the tenant.
You better include a thank you note for the appliances that her estate is giving you free of charge.
Only a heartless bastard would quibble over a few dollars in security deposit, given the circumstances.
I wouldn't normally post a negative reply but I got to say I can't believe that you actually asked this question.
I mean your using she didn't give you a 30 days notice as to when she was going to pass away as a possible reason to keep security money. Even after the estate has given you hundreds of dollars in free appliances.
Losing a tenant hurts you? I'm sure that she wasn't real happy about moving out that way either.
Dude, should do what Dave said and return the money.
Roger
Big Worm .. you sure chose a good name for yourself, only a worm would think think in the way you do. What I find hard to beleve is that you required a deposit from the lady that sold you the place ,and then payed rent . You are hartless, do the right thing and refund the whole deposit,
Dude, all of you need to calm down. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear (and if I didn't, that's my fault). But as I said, I thought that the correct thing to do was to return the entire security deposit. The reason I posted this message was to simply find out what was required of me UNDER THE LAW, because I didn't want to screw myself. I'm new at this landlording thing, so I don't know all of the laws and my landlording/property management books, don't cover this particular aspect of dead tenants.
As I said in my first post, I was planning on returning the deposit, but I didn't know what the law would require of me.
But since I'm posting and I can't see who posted what on this screen, let me just add that whoever mentioned the fact that she sold me the place was really off-base. What the hell difference does that make? She sold me the place because she wanted to cash out and take her money. It certainly wasn't because she liked me or thought that I was cute! She did not do me a favor by selling the place to me. In fact, she would only sell to me if she was contractually allowed stay for one year at what SHE was charging for rent ($550 per month, which for this particular area of Long Beach, CA was anywhere from $150-300 below market rates). So, not only did she not do me a favor, she held me back for one year just so that she could stay. Nonetheless, I was okay with that because I thought that it was still a good investment. And her one year was actually up this June anyway, so I really don't have a problem with her. She was mostly an ideal tenant. And THAT is the reason that I intended to return her security deposit to her kids.
So, once again, you guys need to either read the thread for what it said, or change your tampons (sorry, no offense meant to any women reading this thread) because I was inquiring about what the LAW said, not what YOU or I think is right. Not only had I already decided what I think is right, but what I had decided was the same as what you guys were thinking, so chill the f#@k out!
I'm not trying to make enemies on this site because I think it's a great site with a lot of helpful information. Nonetheless, I will not tolerate personal attacks from idiots who read with limited comprehension and struggle to spell words such as "heartless" without lashing back.
Good luck with your investing. We don't especially need to speak again.
DaveT, your response is exactly how I feel about the situation, even though my very Christian wife wants me to think otherwise! (But that's another story!)
Rajwarrior (I think I spelled that wrong), the old appliances she left me were probably worth less than $300, so they didn't exactly change my life. If anything, it just confirmed what I already thought (which was to give them the whole security deposit). As I said earlier, I just wanted to know if anyone knew what the law required of me.
"What I find hard to beleve is that you required a deposit from the lady that sold you the place ,and then payed rent . You are hartless, do the right thing and refund the whole deposit,"
If the lady sold me the place and wants to stay, then that makes her a tenant, and thus, she is responsible for whatever tenants are typically responsible. That means that if you have lived anywhere other than your mother's basement, you would know that tenants typically pay security deposits, which is what she paid me. Therefore, I wasn't being "hartless" by requiring a security deposit, it is typical between tenants and landlords. Other than that, I won't make any further comments on your spelling and punctuation errors because I often make those myself, BUT I will talk about your sense of logic and knowledge of real estate, because apparently, they are much less than my own.
Wow, anyone interested in some Valium?
Sure, I'll take some!
Was I being too sensitive?
BigWorm,
Glad to meet you.
I saw the title of this post a few days ago and did not even want to look, my second nature said don't get involved this can't be a good one an guess what I was right.
Knowing DaveT & Roger from their posting here at TCI they are two darn level headed guys, so if they responded like they did, I would have to say they had reason to.
Now, please tell me this post was a joke, I mean "Big Worm", "tenant died", "refund security deposit."
I mean you could change your 'nic' to Mortuary Maxx "your smiling landlord" or Morgue Monty "where my tenants are dying to get out."
John $Cash$ Locke
BigWorm,
OK, I slept on it and I am much calmer now.
You "might" have a legal right to retain some or all of the security deposit for "failure to give notice". I don't know for sure. The executor of your tenant's estate could argue that since you were informed of your tenant's terminal illness, that alone should constitute fair notice of an imminent termination of occupancy -- although under uncommon circumstances. Whether this argument will carry any water may just depend upon the temperment of the judge hearing the case.
I suggest you consult your attorney on this one. It may just be possible that your local landlord-tenant laws cover this circumstance and your respective responsibilities are specified in the law.
Under normal circumstances when a tenant "breaks" the lease, you deduct repair costs beyond normal wear and tear from the security deposit, and anything left over is used to offset your rent loss for the remainder of the lease term. You have the responsibility to mitigate the rent loss by acting in good faith to secure a new tenant. If the security deposit is insufficient to cover all your costs, then -- in this case -- you have the option of filing a claim against the estate.
Consider that you are in the people business. Landlord-Tenant relations should be one of your major concerns. To keep your tenants happy, you want to keep your property in top condition, charge a fair rent, and promptly respond to your tenant's concerns. By creating good will, you reduce turnover (lower vacancy rate), and, encourage your tenants to participate in the maintenance and upkeep of the property (containing costs by keeping maintenance molehills from becoming mountains).
If our first reaction to your post was so negative when you suggested keeping the security deposit for failure to give proper notice, imagine how your other tenants will react when they learn of your action. What will happen when you want to increase the rent, and the remaining tenants now see you as greedy instead of fair? Is it possible that the other tenants will rebel, give notice, then vacate the property instead of renewing their leases?
Is this an issue you "really" want to win just because you are in the right?[ Edited by DaveT on Date 06/01/2003 ]
JOHN:
No offense but did you even read the thread? Or did you just skim along the first post? I've seen DaveT and rajwarrior post on some of the other TCI forums so I know that they come off as level headed guys. However, my first response was a really pissed off response because I felt like I was being attacked by people who hadn't even read my posts thoroughly enough to see that I was intending to return the deposit all along. And yesterday, I would've felt the same way about your Mortuary Maxx comment, even if it was kind of funny. I just wanted to know what the law would've said I was required or entitled to do. I was already of the mindset that I would return the deposit and be done with it (see the 2nd post of this thread).
Nonetheless, on my follow up responses I was much calmer (at least with Dave and Roger) and even tried explaining myself because, apparently, either the people here can't or refuse to read, or perhaps I just wasn't being clear enough in the purpose of my question in the first two posts. And since I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, I'll just assume that I was somewhat less than perfectly clear.
After hanging around this board since April, I've come to respect the opinions of many here because, when it comes to real estate, there are a lot of knowledgeable people here. I figured that even though I was planning on returning the deposit, one of the smart people here would be able to tell me what different options would be available to me under the LAW. But I DEFINITELY should have said that I didn't intend to exercise any of those options and that I was asking simply because (here's something I didn't mention because I didn't think it was relevant) I've had this discussion with many (non-RE investor type) people that I know and the answers have come out all over the place. However, I figured that someone here would know what the LAW would say. I expected to get a couple of responses more in line with DaveT's most recent response, but even in that response, he seems to think that I'm out "to win because I'm right" (not an exact quote) as if I just want to get over on these people, but that's not the case.
Other than DaveT's last response, I'm pretty disappointed in this thread because this was the first time I've ever asked a question on TCI (I've only had one other post) and instead of having people attempt to answer the question, they attack my morals without even showing a good comprehension of the purpose of the question. Even you, John, the most visible moderator/author/expert on this board, commnented as if you had never seen me type that I had already intended to return the deposit. I just wanted to know what the REQUIREMENTS were of a landlord in this situation. If that point wasn't clear enough in my first two posts (which I admit it wasn't), then it defintely should have been apparent to anyone who had read my responses to Dave, Roger and the guy with the bad spelling/typing skills.
By the way, if I ever decide to use that "Dying to get out" slogan, do I have to pay you?
DAVET:
On the subject of her illness, I was notified of her cancer when her daughter told me that she had already passed away. I didn't even know she had a terminal illness. She was pretty active for an old lady even though she smoked like a chimney.
Overall, your answer was somewhat along the lines of what I was thinking. This issue is not important enough for me to consult with lawyers because I had already decided to return the deposit. And even if I wanted to keep the deposit, WHICH I DON'T (sorry, I had to reiterate that so that I don't get any more accusations), I seriously doubt that it's enough money to justify paying lawyers about it. I was just hoping that one of the knowledgeable people here would know more than I did on the subject. Instead, the only responses I got came back sounding like, "Stop being a bastard and return the deposit you mean, evil man!" - even though I had already said that I was intending to return the deposit.[ Edited by BigWorm on Date 06/01/2003 ]
Bigworm, you're probably right, we did come on a bit too strong and for that I'm sorry, but your initial post was pretty heartless sounding.
As far as the security deposit, I think that the giving of the appliances would account for "not giving notice" (BTW, $300 would be a few hundred ). At least, I think it could be an issue in court.
What would become an issue with me would be the amount of time it took for the estate to gather her belongings and vacate the premises. They should still only have 30 days max. If they took longer than that, you may have a legal right to take some security deposit. As Dave said though, tread lightly here. You're dealing with people that are already stressed due to the recent death, and it may be better, regardless of legal rights, to just get it over with as quickly as possible and move on.
Good luck,
Roger
Big Worm,
Your post prompted me to reread this thread, then it all made sense to me when I saw the part where you are from Long Beach, CA.
I owned two car lots one in Las Vegas and one in a small town in a different county close to Area 51 where the aliens are suppose to be along with their spaceship under guard by the government.
Ater watching the people in this small town for a while I began to realize that they were a little different than most people you come across. It took me awhile to figure out why, but I did.
This small town is located in a big valley and the valley is covered by a thin layer extremly fine dirt. So when you walk in the dirt is like walking in a fine powder. Kind of makes a Poof sound when you step down.
Then I figured that this Poof Dirt is what the aliens came here for thousands of years ago. They must have set up a mining operation, filled there space ships with Poof Dirt and distributed it throught the Galaxy. This Poof Dirt has kind of a 'smoke a joint' effect on people so you can see it's importance. A legal high.
To tie in this story to your situation, there was a lady from Long Beach who moved to this small town, she was a retired long shoreman er I mean person.
She purchased a vehicle from my lot but was in everyday telling us stories of the problem she was finding with the car. like the cigarette lighter did not stay hot enough to light her cigarettes from pushing it in then pulling it out, important things you understand.
I recieved a call one day from a friend at the Sheriffs office who I had been telling the story to about the lady from Long Beach, he told me she was arrested the night before, seems she was threatening a neighbor with a weapon, because he was an alien, wanting to take her away in his spaceship.
So my conclusion to your post is that some of this Poof Dirt must have been carried back to Long Beach on a very strong Santa Anna wind. However do not worry soon this Poof Dirt will disapate and everything will be fine, unless you folks over in Long Beach really like the stuff, in that case you can have it shipped in by those planes that put fires out instead of a fire retartdant it will be Poof Dirt.
John $Cash$ Locke
PS: Your post said what everyone thought it said so, I have given you a little out here on what you might have been thinking, take advantage of it.
Do not stop posting this will all go away, I would get rid of the Big Worm nic for sure. Maybe something like 'Poof Dirt' .
BigWorm,
The most important point of my message is that you have landlord-tenant laws in your area. Not only would these laws be state specific, but local variations in implementation may be observed from county to county. Your local municipal ordinances may also have some impact on your landlord rights.
For example, in one state I have rental properties in two adjoining counties. In one county, I can process an eviction in 23 days while the other county requires a minimum of 60 days. In one county the minimum notification period for a rent increase is 30 days, while in the other county it is 60 days. In one city in one county, the municipal ordinances state that "source of income is a protected class" which means that I can not reject a Section 8 tenant (in that city) just because I don't want to rent to Section 8 applicants.
I now know that you are simply asking the question for your own personal edification. While there are general principles that are fairly common in landlord-tenant laws regardless of location, noone on this board would be expected to know what your local ordinances say concerning death of the tenant and how that impacts your lease termination provisions.
If you feel the matter is moot at this point and does not justify consulting a lawyer, why not ask a couple of professional management companies in your area if they have ever run into the same situation. If so, then you may be able to benefit from the advice the management company may have already received from their own legal counsel.
That's a great idea about asking a property management company. I was asking here because I thought that there were a few more people here from SoCal. But you're still correct about how the differences in local ordinances would still make it very difficult to get an answer. For example, Long Beach is in LA county, but it doesn't have rent control like the city of LA and certain other LA county cities do. At this point it's irrelevant. I was just hoping that someone here might have a quick answer because my internet searches were fruitless.
But at least I got 2 pages and counting worth of replies!
JOHN: On the subject of this "poof dirt" you mentioned. Can it be bagged and sold? Because if it can, becoming a poof dirt dealer feels easier than being a new landlord. Now I know why many real estate investors choose the "creative investor" route, because landlording has it own special headaches.
Hey Big Worm!
Yesterday my 87 year old tenant died. We'll miss her. She was great and I'll be returning deposit funds to her daughter, I am also new to this landlord gig and I originally had the same question as yours...what does the law say?
We have a slightly different situation.
I own the entire duplex. I own all the appliances. She was a tenant for bout 10 years. However she was my tenant for only 3 of those years. The previous owner was the landlord and when he sold us the property, her lease went with it, however, the secuity deposits were kept (probably because he did not want to lay out any cash ) as a part of the purchase deal.
I have no receipts on the security deposit amount, maybe her daughter does since she has POA.
Her rent remained the same after we bought the place a was not raised while she was our tenant. We provided free lare care & snow removal (on a 2 acre lot!).
The condition of the property is ok after 10 years, but needs a paint job bad. There is the usual nail holes and the faucets need replacement. I also would like the carpets professionally cleaned.
This alone may eat up most of the security deposit.
The tenant was under hospice care and died in the unit with the family by her side.
The only problem is that there is a very noticable "elderly" aroma in the house so that's another reason to paint.
The daughter asked if she needed to cut us a check for another month's rent and I told her absolutely NOT.
What I was going to propose was to take care of all the cleanup, carpets and painting and apply those costs to the secuity deposit (which I think was $600).
I would return any remainder.
However after reading this post I am wondering just what is fair for both of us and what all them there other experienced land lords would do?
I didn't before, but now I feel guilty for thinking about charging for the carpet & paint work.
BTW: I thought all landlords WERE heartless, at least the dozen or so I have rented from have been!
BW II,
Usually, normal wear and tear is not deductible from security deposits while repairs due to tenant abuse are deductible.
I the wall painting (together with the required wall prep) would fall into the normal wear and tear category, rather than tenant abuse.
I overlook nail holes and the usual furniture scrapes you will get when tenants move in or out, because my painter charges me the same to paint the walls whether or not wall prep is required.
My lease requires the tenant to have the carpets professionally clean when they vacate. If they don't, then my lease specifies that the cleaning will be deducted from their security deposit. What does the language of your lease say? If it is silent on this topic, then I would also think that carpet cleaning may also fall into the normal wear and tear category, especially after several years.
Thanks for the reply.
Yeah it looks like there is a Termination Provision that completely de-balls us on any retention of deposits if the owner becomes "not fit" to occupy the premises.
Also the lease IS silent on the carpet issue. I will tell the POA to NOT clean the carpets. They will surely use a rental machine which does more harm than good. I will have to dig into my pocket for this cleaning and painting, but it will be a tax deduction.
Having NOT raised her rent over the years, I screwed myself out of the normal wear and tear that would usually be worked into the rent.
I did the same with the free lawn care.
However, one must not overlook the property value increase over those same years and the equity aquired from her rent.
We just closed on the refinance last week and will save about $400 per month, and finally got rid of that dang PMI.
We won't be renting out the other side, instead we will be renting it back to OUR OWN home business for $900/mo as an office.
We live out in the country, so there should be no issues with that. I hope.
Thanks!
OH MAN!!!
This thread is a veritable three ring circus...
Only, instead of Tigers that leap through rings of fire. We have BIG WORM inhaling 'poof dirt'!
I LOVE IT!!
After reading all the slams on this guy, I guess in answer to his question, you need to review your lease with the tenant. In most instances, death will make a contract unenforcable. But most contracts add "assigns and heirs" to try and make the family responsible for the debts of the deceased. Would this stand the test in court? I would think not.
As for the deposit money, you technically could keep it since the lease was broken. I just can't imagine anyone wanting to keep it. I think that would keep me awake nights.
Worm, if I were you, go ahead and give the deposit back to the family, clean the unit up and put it up for rent. WHo knows, your next tenant could come from the family. Im sure they know the place well since it was owner by the family for a period of time.