yes, i did get a title insurance policy. that is what i was referring to. the title companies, by legislation, are no longer forced to pay for liens they miss, unless you actually lose money when you sell it.
they say it is an indemnity product. whatever !! it is their way of getting out of paying all the small stuff.
so - is it normal that a city govt lien is placed on the property tax bill ?
Quote:
On 2008-10-31 03:31, hard-money-lender wrote:
so - is it normal that a city govt lien is placed on the property tax bill ?
I think it depends if they like you or not. My city (village - hamlet) pop 497) was going to put a tax lien on a property I have. It was for a water bill from a previous tenant for about $55. Far as I know I am the first person they have offered to do this to. Guess that tells you how much they like me.
However, to answer your question. Here in Missouri it is one of their "legal" gotcha things and they are allowed to do it.
i guess i will have to assume that this city also has that power.
hi cj,
the guy who caused the lien is the guy i foreclosed on. so it would be useless to go after him. one files a claim with the title company, but you have to show that you lost money on the sale of the property. so if you keep it for lease, you could not get anything UNTIL YOU SELL IT, AND ACTUALLY LOSE MONEY.
so the lesson learned is dont expect title companies to do any work on finding small claims. simply because it costs them more to do the work than it will ever cost them in losses due to claims.
i dont have a loss on the property. and that is what the title companies are telling me. i have already experienced this before with another title company.
never was an issue that i was aware of, because i never had to take over any properties, before.
Quote:
On 2008-10-31 11:21, hard-money-lender wrote:
thanks haynes,
i guess i will have to assume that this city also has that power.
Hard money lender
In reality that is the wrong answer but might have to be the right answer due to cost. I would think you would have the city give you a copy of their ordinance showing they can place a lien on your property. In Missouri we have the state Sunshine Law and if we give a written request to the city clerk requesting information, such as the ordinance showing they can place a lien on property, the city has 72 hours to give us the information or they are violating state law. Do you have such a thing in your area and is it worth your time – effort to ask for the ordinance.
i have no idea. but at this point, i dont think it is worth it. there is little doubt that a new buyer will find out about the lien. and even if he doesnt, he could come back after me for it, later.
i dont want to try to screw someone else, just because the title company did it to me.
there are now 2 title companies that will never get any more business from me.
i am in california, so this may be just a state thing. i dont recall if it was a federal or state ruling that allowed the title companies to do what they are doing.
the property was foreclosed upon in a non-judicial matter (california).
it was just on the water bill.
sometime after i foreclosed, they recorded a "perfected" lien. didnt know there was an "imperfected" lien.
that perfected lien showed up on my property tax bill.
i have - 2 separate issues now with title companies - same message.
i then checked with several of the loan brokers that i work with - they tell me the same thing.
there was a law passed 10-20 years ago that basically the title companies are able to claim it is an indemnity policy, such that they pay only if the homeowner loses money. and yes, if you keep it for 2 years, you cant claim to have lost money, UNTIL YOU SELL IT.
which is exactly why title companies are now sloppy with anything but mortgage loans. it costs them much more to do correct research than it does paying for claims, that they can mostly evade.[ Edited by hard-money-lender on Date 11/03/2008 ]
maybe i did not make myself clear. as a hard money lender, i had a first trust deed on it. i did a standard loan with a broker, with appraisal, title policy, etc.
the title company did not catch the lien on the property at that time. by the time i actually took possession of the property, is when i found out about the lien. about 2 months later, they "perfected" it with the city.
I am still confused. If the water company did not perfect (record) their lien until after you foreclosed, how would the title company discover a lien that had not been recorded yet?
I believe municipal liens survive foreclosure. So even if the water company lien had been recorded prior to your foreclosure, it would not be extinguished by foreclosure. it would still be attached to the property once you took title.
Sounds like the title company is blameless. Perhaps you could get a judgment against the borrower and pursue collection.[ Edited by NewKidInTown3 on Date 11/04/2008 ]
I have a simular problem. I closed on a home that was a forclosure. After the closing I tried to have the water turned on and the Municipal water system denied the water from being turned on, unless I paid the back utility bill of the previous owner of $605.
There was no lien put on the property. The previous owners filed for bankrupsy and the property was forclosed upon.
The title search showed two liens still existing from the bankrupsy that had not been cleared. The title company were able to get releases for the two liens.
Then the suprise when we went to have the water turned on.
My lawyer told me to pay the bill under letter of protest. Then take them to small claims court.
He said I had a 75% chance of winning.
Most Municipal utilities fall under the jurisdiction of the State if it is a pubic utility the jurisdiction fall on the public utility commission of the state. I have found State statues that say if the billing is unreasonable then you are not liable.
have you looked at www.citimortgage.com?
They had some number for loss mitt up there.
supposed somewhere in MD there is a department that does bulk REO sales.. I have yet to track them down.
No wonder they are where they are today. Why are the hiding there information?
Here is a link I found on the CitiMortgage web site.
CitiMortgage_Properties_for_Sale
On this page, I found this contact number -- 1-800-667-8424
Good Luck
[ Edited by NewKidInTown3 on Date 11/24/2008 ]
To contact the REO department about a property that Citimortgate is holding title to.
did you get a lender title insurance policy?
Should be able to file a claim from there. Depending on the policy limits might not be worth it.
yes, i did get a title insurance policy. that is what i was referring to. the title companies, by legislation, are no longer forced to pay for liens they miss, unless you actually lose money when you sell it.
they say it is an indemnity product. whatever !! it is their way of getting out of paying all the small stuff.
so - is it normal that a city govt lien is placed on the property tax bill ?
Quote:
On 2008-10-31 03:31, hard-money-lender wrote:
so - is it normal that a city govt lien is placed on the property tax bill ?
I think it depends if they like you or not. My city (village - hamlet) pop 497) was going to put a tax lien on a property I have. It was for a water bill from a previous tenant for about $55. Far as I know I am the first person they have offered to do this to. Guess that tells you how much they like me.
However, to answer your question. Here in Missouri it is one of their "legal" gotcha things and they are allowed to do it.
Is it a matter of paying the lien, and then filing a claim?
Do you know who caused the lien and is a small claims action doable?
thanks haynes,
i guess i will have to assume that this city also has that power.
hi cj,
the guy who caused the lien is the guy i foreclosed on. so it would be useless to go after him. one files a claim with the title company, but you have to show that you lost money on the sale of the property. so if you keep it for lease, you could not get anything UNTIL YOU SELL IT, AND ACTUALLY LOSE MONEY.
so the lesson learned is dont expect title companies to do any work on finding small claims. simply because it costs them more to do the work than it will ever cost them in losses due to claims.
i dont have a loss on the property. and that is what the title companies are telling me. i have already experienced this before with another title company.
never was an issue that i was aware of, because i never had to take over any properties, before.
it should go into the cost of that loan to minimize taxes at least.
Quote:
On 2008-10-31 11:21, hard-money-lender wrote:
thanks haynes,
i guess i will have to assume that this city also has that power.
Hard money lender
In reality that is the wrong answer but might have to be the right answer due to cost. I would think you would have the city give you a copy of their ordinance showing they can place a lien on your property. In Missouri we have the state Sunshine Law and if we give a written request to the city clerk requesting information, such as the ordinance showing they can place a lien on property, the city has 72 hours to give us the information or they are violating state law. Do you have such a thing in your area and is it worth your time – effort to ask for the ordinance.
i have no idea. but at this point, i dont think it is worth it. there is little doubt that a new buyer will find out about the lien. and even if he doesnt, he could come back after me for it, later.
i dont want to try to screw someone else, just because the title company did it to me.
there are now 2 title companies that will never get any more business from me.
i am in california, so this may be just a state thing. i dont recall if it was a federal or state ruling that allowed the title companies to do what they are doing.
thanks for all your replies.
$3800.
the property was foreclosed upon in a non-judicial matter (california).
it was just on the water bill.
sometime after i foreclosed, they recorded a "perfected" lien. didnt know there was an "imperfected" lien.
that perfected lien showed up on my property tax bill.
i have - 2 separate issues now with title companies - same message.
i then checked with several of the loan brokers that i work with - they tell me the same thing.
there was a law passed 10-20 years ago that basically the title companies are able to claim it is an indemnity policy, such that they pay only if the homeowner loses money. and yes, if you keep it for 2 years, you cant claim to have lost money, UNTIL YOU SELL IT.
which is exactly why title companies are now sloppy with anything but mortgage loans. it costs them much more to do correct research than it does paying for claims, that they can mostly evade.[ Edited by hard-money-lender on Date 11/03/2008 ]
maybe i did not make myself clear. as a hard money lender, i had a first trust deed on it. i did a standard loan with a broker, with appraisal, title policy, etc.
the title company did not catch the lien on the property at that time. by the time i actually took possession of the property, is when i found out about the lien. about 2 months later, they "perfected" it with the city.
I am still confused. If the water company did not perfect (record) their lien until after you foreclosed, how would the title company discover a lien that had not been recorded yet?
I believe municipal liens survive foreclosure. So even if the water company lien had been recorded prior to your foreclosure, it would not be extinguished by foreclosure. it would still be attached to the property once you took title.
Sounds like the title company is blameless. Perhaps you could get a judgment against the borrower and pursue collection.[ Edited by NewKidInTown3 on Date 11/04/2008 ]
I have a simular problem. I closed on a home that was a forclosure. After the closing I tried to have the water turned on and the Municipal water system denied the water from being turned on, unless I paid the back utility bill of the previous owner of $605.
There was no lien put on the property. The previous owners filed for bankrupsy and the property was forclosed upon.
The title search showed two liens still existing from the bankrupsy that had not been cleared. The title company were able to get releases for the two liens.
Then the suprise when we went to have the water turned on.
My lawyer told me to pay the bill under letter of protest. Then take them to small claims court.
He said I had a 75% chance of winning.
Most Municipal utilities fall under the jurisdiction of the State if it is a pubic utility the jurisdiction fall on the public utility commission of the state. I have found State statues that say if the billing is unreasonable then you are not liable.
I live in the state of Idaho.