Which Course?
hi
i'm interested in bird dogging. I have seen two courses and I cant decide which to get. the first is John Lockes big bucks bird dogging and the other is barry grime income generator system. has anyone used them? I am looking for detailed directions and i'd rather not have to buy more to learn how to actually do this!
thanks
stef
I purchased John Lockes ebook on birddogging and was able to get started within two days.
Using the info in the ebook you should be able to locate investors in your area without any trouble.
There is also a sample copy of a contract included.
Can't help you on the other one.
Good Luck.
Well - I've posted this several times - but this time I've been told by Joel I won't be deleted again (let's hope that's the case)...
Again, I can't agree or recommend John's book ... supposedly there will be a new site dedicated to those that bought it - included in the price. If that's a part of the deal then it may be worth exploring, but simply as an introduction.
I think the best route (if you're not interested in buying and comparing both) is to just rummage through the forum here - and buy the grime book (or try to find some reviews of it online via google search)...
If this post gets deleted again, but you get a chance to read it first, you'll know someone is trying to dissuade you from making an informed decision.
Best,
Skeptic
Skeptic,
I have checked the records of all those who have purchased my e-book, either by nickname and name. I find no record of you purchasing my book.
So what is your agenda?
You are still hiding behind a nickname, are you afraid to step up to the plate for fear that someone may disagree with you as a real person.
You say supposedly there is going to be a new site dedicated to Bird Dogs, you cast a doubt on my word, there is a site being constructed by the Webbgroup it will be a free site for those that made the investment in my e-book. Here again innuendo on your part.
So tell me who are you fronting for, certainly not for your self or you would come forward like a man instead of hiding for fear of being recognized.
No credibility on your part.
John $Cash$ Locke
Aye, yai yai (said like Ricky Ricardo)
John -
I can't say anything, it would seem, without you wanting to fight me. Before, I asked that we keep it in spirited debate and on the issue - but you still came after me.
Well let's not get into that whole thing again... (otherwise Joel may think I'm ranting - to which I've been told I'll be deleted for such... and I'm trying to avoid that)
... to answer your question though ... no agenda ...no anything. I'm just showing another viewpoint/opinion. It was deleted and I believe that was wrong.
...regarding using the word "supposedly" as though I was trying to cast doubt... that was not my intention... perhaps a poor choice of words on my part (since I am a skeptic, I must believe it when I see it, though) ... regardless, your forgetting that I said "If that's a part of the deal then it may be worth exploring".
I'm sure there are countless other posts on this forum asking about bird-dogging ...I only responded to 3 of them. (again, underscoring that I have no agenda)... yet all of my responses were deleted. I suppose one could say I simply don't like having my viewpoint/opinion tossed for simply disagreeing - and that's the only reason why anyone is seeing this again.
You wouldn't want to be treated this way either.
Can't we just disagree?
-Skeptic
Steffi,
I have never bought a product from John Locke, or Barry Grime. Never met either, nor spoke with them in person or telephone.
I understand that you simply asked a question, but if you dont get a groundswell of people telling you to go for one or the other, you still have a couple of choices. I dont think buying neither makes a great deal of sense because John's book is less than $50 and I dont know the price of Barry Grime's, but let's be serious.
If you are serious about this business then a small investment in education is necessary. If you bought one and you get ONE idea from it that is worth using, what is that worth to you?
John does a lot of posting on this site.
So you have an inside track on his knowledge and availability.
Look at his notes and think to yourself, does he know this stuff? can he help me? If you think he can, step up and pay for the book. If you feel it was a complete zero (for a beginner I dont see how that is possible) then buy the other book.
Hey, we arent talking about a huge investment.
And either one has to save you some money or time along the way.
I have a dilemma about his Subject To product. I already have some expensive materials. Covers everything I need. I wont spend $1000 on anything else. But his book is "targeted" to a great subject not too broad, I hope, and only $150. How can I NOT find one idea?
Just MHO
Neill
Neill,
I'll personally guarantee to you that IF you buy John's Subject to book, that you'll find at least one idea that can work for you, regardless of the type of investing you do.
Skeptic,
Do you actually read your posts before hitting the send key? You haven't read John Locke's ebook but you don't recommend it. You've openly questioned John Locke's honesty and integrity several times on this site, including the post above. While condemning John's book (again without reading it) you encourage the poster to buy the other book instead. Just curious, have you actually read it, or is it just because you don't want them buying Mr. Locke's stuff.
How can you say that you're the 'informed' decision? I think that it's clear to even the newest newbie here that the only 'agenda' any one has here is you. You definitely have something against Mr. Locke, we're just curious what it is.
Roger
is that skeptic or septic?
Roger, I don't think septic has anything at all against John Lock. I have experienced this type of behaver before 1's or 2'ce septics ememy is his own mind. Self confidence, failure, complicated with dilution. If the other teacher posted here the attac would be on him. I hope septic took my last advise and got some Paxil then we will see a difference in 30 days or so.
Everyone, please do not try to figure out whats in septics mind , or what he has against anyone but himself. Unless you have a P.H.D., but that must be another site. I'm nervous that our remarks feed his dilution and he THINKS they contribute to success.
this guy is like gum that lost its flavor
LOL ... okay - and here we go again.
I'll let Raj go on and on about making personal attacks (note the assumptions he's made with no evidence) ... you're not drawing me into it.
Stick to the issues Raj ... and anyone else who thinks a one sided recommendation is "informed".
Raj - here's a question for YOU - did you have anything to do with deleting my posts previously?
For goodness sake ... it would appear that personal attack is what these people are about if it's anything in disagreement with John.
Sorry - making informed decisions doesn't work that way. Stick to the issue or say nothing... I'm not going to respond to personal attack b.s.
Best,
Skeptic
P.S. - David - invest in a spellchecker.
[ Edited by skeptical_but_open-minded on Date 07/27/2003 ]
While this is barely worth responding to, I feel that I must since Skeptic has so elegantly responded to his on rants.
Skeptic wrote, "Stick to the issues Raj ... and anyone else who thinks a one sided recommendation is "informed". "
This was exactly my point. You recommended that they buy the Grime book, but not Locke's. However, you give no explanation as to why one is better over the other. Have you read either? (We know you haven't read Locke's because, in previous posts, YOU admitted not having read it, and Mr. Locke searched his records and found no indication that you bought it).
Did I delete your previous posts? NO. If I would have deleted them, I would have informed you of my reason via private message. However, I feel that they were deleted because your idea of a personal opinion and a flaming, headon attack are really mixed up. As per forum rules, flaming posts are a no-no.
BTW, a recommendation is one-sided: It means that you liked the product (requires actually reading/reviewing the product to make a "informed" recommendation.)
An Informed Decision is where someone takes other peoples' recommendations/disapprovals and their reasons for each (which you have not supplied) and taking action based on those opinions/facts.
Roger
I dont really see why everyone has started to attack the skeptic person. Is this thread/topic/forum so sensitive that when someone disagrees with a respected person, that he gets deleted and jumped on?
I dont think the cure-all to the subject is contained in John's e-book, and most definately it is not for everyone. It is impossible that one source or solution is for everyone. Some people may not like John's folksy approach, or they may not like the format, or the way he approaches the subject. John has a style that is his own. Most really like him, but it is not possible that everyone MUST love him, nor his product.
John does not need people to kick other posters for him. If he feels the need to defend himself, the lets have John do it.
I agree with skeptic, it is ok sometimes to "agree to disagree". I didnt see anything that this person did which deserves what he has received so far.
Now if this person starts attacking John, as his person or saying that he is a drunk, bankrupt, a felon..things that are out and out lies, then feel free to ambush this person. Not liking a product, and expressing that dislike, the last I heard is a right that someone has on this forum?
Lets take it easy and ask why he doesnt like the book instead of playing "kick the man"
I post this knowing I am also in the minority, but I also have purchased both of John's products and even more than that.
Cappers,
I understand that you probably didn't get to read the last of this person's posts, as the were deleted for pretty much the reasons you gave, but I don't feel that I, or others are 'attacking' Skeptic. Disagreeing with his methods and approach, most definitely.
As stated above, from previous posts, Skeptic said that he had not read the Locke book, yet Skeptic has pushed people away from it, calling it overpriced, simplistic, crap, etc.. This is my problem with his posts and where it looks as if it is a personal problem he has with Mr. Locke.
Personally, I don't care which book he likes best. It becomes a problem when he can't write objectively about his views on the subject, though.
Roger
Roger,
I did read all the messages before they were deleted, but at that point I didnt say anything. I dont like/need to jump into messes too often, but to answer your question, I did read every one of the exchanges that he and John had. It was interesting to read partly because that skeptic person didnt back down when multiple people started in on him, just as he did now.
I dont recall reading that he didnt purchase the product or read it himself, but that may have been in there. He also might know someone who gave him the skinny on the material etc.
If I were getting involved and if it were MY course, I would ask him if he indeed he did or did not read it again, and even offer to send him a copy, so if he hadnt that he get to read it, and offer to either privately or publically debate its points, and try to resolve the difference, or as he put it, just agree to disagree.
I didnt find anything he said in this exchange to be a personal attack, and I dont recall in the first exchange that he said anything like I mentioned concerning John. What I do recall seeing is that he said everyone praises it, and if someone doesnt, they get attacked.
Being one of Johns students, I didnt find all my answers to Sub-to questions in his book, and most definately not in the bird dogging. There are plenty of things that have to be learned by asking questions, observing exchanges on subjects that cannot be answered by reading print. More on the other site than here, but I learned the finer points and specific questions by digging deeper and knowing what I DIDNT know, then finding those answers. And in John's book that isnt found. Now it can be found sometimes by asking him, but to get specific local details, the answers have usually come from rubbing elbows with others who are local.
I am sure that if this skeptic person wants to give more info as to why he didnt care for the material, he should be allowed to do so. Maybe it might actually help John make a better book, who knows?
But as you know from past exchanges with each other, I am much more of the type to look, ask questions, spar a little rather than ban and delete..
GL
Hi all - I'm sorry, I've been away and busy and didn't know the post had grown yesterday and today ..so let me respond (as there are some pretty serious lies being stated)...
First, there's a part of me that wants to humbly thank GL (WallStreetCappers) for truly giving an unbiased view of the entire fire-fight going on (thank goodness he DID see those earlier posts) ... but let me not heap too much praise ...seems he is a straightshooter and doesn't need anyone blowin' smoke ...
That said let me quote a couple of things here:
"...(We know you haven't read Locke's because, in previous posts, YOU admitted not having read it,"
------->This is an absolute lie. I started the entire first thread stating the very words "I've read John's book..." and then went into why I felt the guy who was being coaxed into buying it - who didn't have very much money - should reconsider. You've attempted to float this lie as a trial balloon - it's not working - so just cut with it.
Quote:
"....However, I feel that they were deleted because your idea of a personal opinion and a flaming, headon attack are really mixed up. As per forum rules, flaming posts are a no-no. "
-------> There was no "Flaming" post going on - and again, I'm not talking about the initial fire-fight we all participated in - I'm talking about simply posting something no different than my first post in this thread above. And the very idea of you stating this is the pot calling the kettle black if I've ever heard it - I've been doing nothing but scraping off your attacks as this post has shown.
Regarding the rest of what you "define" as recommendations and "informed decisions" ...you really don't get what i'm trying to say... I'm not repeating it (again because I imagine Joel may be waiting on the delete button if he deems this a "rant" as the first fire-fight was branded) (btw, he in fact, did explain to me his reasons for deleting that - while I didn't agree with him, I did see where he was coming - but not the most recent ones to this poster ... he said he had nothing to do with it and I believe him).
Quote from GL (WallStreetCappers):
"Now if this person starts attacking John, as his person or saying that he is a drunk, bankrupt, a felon..things that are out and out lies, then feel free to ambush this person. Not liking a product, and expressing that dislike, the last I heard is a right that someone has on this forum?"
..and then the (infamous) Quote from Raj:
" ...you probably didn't get to read the last of this person's posts, as the were deleted for pretty much the reasons you gave, but I don't feel that I, or others are 'attacking' Skeptic. Disagreeing with his methods and approach, most definitely. "
----------> As to the first part - you're apparently attempting to say that those reasons WallStreet gave - I ACTUALLY said - ey? Thank goodness for Wallstreets good memory recall ...because otherwise I'd be calling you the liar you are with literally no evidence to back it up...
...as to the second part ... again, you've been doing MUCH more than disagreeing - and anyone who's read this stuff knows it.
For the record - the only thing that EVER came close to John being called anything to blemish his character (from me) was when I used the word "supposedly" up above - and that was an admitted mistake. Other than that I've said nothing about John in anyway that you have just characterized through your lies.
Quote:
"As stated above, from previous posts, Skeptic said that he had not read the Locke book, yet Skeptic has pushed people away from it, calling it overpriced, simplistic, crap, etc.. "
-------->I've already stated why this is a lie - but on top of that - I can't seem to remember calling the book "cr*p" (though I remember using that word in a post - I don't believe it was directed at the book).
Quote:
"Personally, I don't care which book he likes best. It becomes a problem when he can't write objectively about his views on the subject, though. "
------->Writing objectively is exactly what I did. To answer "why would I ask the person to try one book - but not the other?" It's very simple:
The woman in this thread explained she didn't want to buy both books - right? Okay - logic would dictate that if you can't afford both - and one is (as I stated previously) freely available in the postings on this board .... well then - why buy a book you can get for free right here? The person would have both sets of information utilizing the minimum funds necessary.
Does this make the least bit of sense to you Raj? Furthermore, doesn't it seem like the proper course YOU might instruct someone to take if they wanted both books but could only afford one? (try and remove yourself from this argument and think of it abstractly).
Now - on to answering the real issue questions that WallStreetCap has posed (and they are legitimate questions):
Why didn't i like the book? Well for the very reasons you mentioned ... but I must admit I actually liked John's "down home" style ... it was simply the substance and generality of it all that had me taken aback....
...but let me back track.... ya' see Cappers - I would never have said a thing about it if I hadn't seen that one post in which the guy was being coaxed into buying the book - and he admitted he had hardly enough money (the post originated because he posted an offer to buy it used). I felt an absolute duty to stop this kid ... but I've written all this before. My point the basic book itself is very basic ... and that's really the worst I've said about it ... beyond that I explained to the kid "Just study this forum for a week and you'll get most of the info - other than the contracts - in the book"
...anyway you seem to have a good enough memory to remember all this ... so I'm sorry for rehashing... rather I'm trying to build this up to say (as I've said MANY times, but no one will give me credit for this) ... the book alone I believe is too little and too general - BUT ...when John ads on the website, and for the fact that one can contact him all the time - that type of product may well be worth it.
All of my posts have said nothing more than the sum-total of what I've just written ... everything else I've been fighting tooth and nail to stop the attacks - and Raj has very obviously lead the charge, but now, I think anyone reading these (at least with a half-way logical and unbiased sense of direction) will see what this has all been about.
Okay ...enough folks. I've just been lied about a number of times and this is just getting silly. You all MUST understand this kinda' stuff, as characterized by WallStreetCappers (heck, read HIS posts - don't even read MINE) needs to stop... if we can't simply disagree how can anyone take the information on this forum seriously?
(Yes, yes, I know - _______<--- fill in the blank with disparaging remark about how I am "anonymous" and hiding. Honestly folks - does me being "anonymous" actually make my words untrue above?
Thank you for your time ... Joel, please don't delete this - I had to respond.
Best,
Skeptic
Guys -
I'm not trying to filibuster here - but WallStreet had also mentioned something to the effect of of how I might wanna' say how John's product could be improved - I forgot to write that in the above post (I could've edited the above, but I think it was long enough and a break was necessary)...
John - you should find this helpful... nothing negative here ... let me explain:
When I read all the posts on the forum - the two things that stood out the most were obviously your Bird-Dog book and then your Subject-To course. I read so many positive reviews of each it was honestly hard to decide what to do. Anyway, long story short, I was on the ropes to get the subject-to course EVEN BEFORE I'd read anything from you.
Now think about that for a moment.... your ability to get your point across in the forums plus your good reviews PLUS your interesting articles had me almost READY TO BUY the bigger course.
Okay, I won't rehash the whole Bird Dog disappointment ... let's just fast-forward past it and my next point - I think it's imperitive that you include the add-on website and UP-PLAY your "phone-consultation" end of things in order for the manual to have higher value... beyond that I just think you need to add just a bit more for the complete novice... more than what they could find here in this forum. That's all I've been trying to say....
...buut I've said this already - my point that i"m trying to get to is - you lost me as a SALE on your higher end product simply because of my disappointment with the Bird Dog manual. Ya' see, now I'm looking at Subject-To wondering "well why should I buy that if, MAYBE, I could get the same info on this forum?"... again, I am in NO WAY stating that is the case here... what I'm saying is, it's the "wait... I didn't like the first one - I may not like the second one" thought in one's mind that cut the momentum.
I hope this viewpoint helps you rather than appears as an attack.
Okay... that's all I've got to say. Perhaps this will cool everyone's jets a bit.
Best,
Skeptic
Hi,
My comments really have very little to do with this bloody fight, but as everyone likes to read a good war I figure someone would also read this.
My first comment is I am AMAZED at how lazy people are when they come to this board. Everything anyone could ever want to know about RE is out here, but instead of spending the time to search the archives or read the forums, that slap together a new message that has been answered a hundred times. (Wait for it...here comes the tie in to this thread). One of the very first comments I ever read by John Locke was that everything in his books was already on the forum, if you went and looked for it. WOW!!!! Here was an author saying if you take the time, you don't have to spend any money.
Couldn't this whole fight been avoided if the first poster (who I don't think ever said anything again) had just done that???
Second, if DOES take some big brass ones to disagree with someone's Guru. People get really upset if you do that. Many, many times I have read things written about Robert Allen (and a whole host of other Gurus) and thought the person writing it was way off base. But because I didn't want to get into a war, I didn't say anything.
And I was wrong about that.
This site should be a place where people can present different views and not be attacked, based solely on them having a different view.
Happy Hunting!!!
Hello All,
Burce is right on two fronts. First: this is a bloody battle. Second "A good war", this reads as long as bloody "War and Peace".
Anyway my $0.02: I have taken Sheets, heard Whitney, and read Conti&Finkel, LeGrand, and too many others to mention here.
As far as John's Bird Dog manual is concerned, I would recommend it. Simply for the fact that it is written for the COMPLETELY GREEN NOVICE. So many posters on this board have seen the late night infomercials, and have been bitten, no matter how fleeting, by the REI live like Tom Vu bug. They come in with hope and unrealistic expectations. I think that the Bird Dog is fine at $50, granted it would look better at $35, but if people want to learn this business from the ground up, it is a great place to start. Bring your lunch to work, forego the morning coffee from Starbucks and save the $50. All REI investors know that this business takes sacrifice of some kind. Yes the material is available here on TCI, but it is great to have the manual to refer to from time to time.
The "Sub To" is a definite buy. I was dissapointed to find out that all the "Guru" courses out there are not taught by a "Guru", buy by a professional "student" of the course. Well if I am going to spend $500.00, or $5000.00, I want to see the Horse before I hear his words come out of someone else's mouth. I got John's phone number when I got the manual. Yeah, I found some of the information from the manual on TCI, but there are lots of things in the manual I have not found. And if I am stuck, I can call John (and have on a couple of occasions).
Skeptic is entitled to his opinion. Our countries promote free speech and freedom of expression, however, I think that the majority would agree with my assessment of John's material.
Good Investing to you all,
Jesse
Thank goodness this discussion has finally turned civil...
...fella's - I might disagree on some of what you've both stated, but at least we can talk about it rationally.
Best,
-Skeptic
Bruce,
Everything can be researched, I am the first one to admit I never attended a seminar or read a guru book by anyone. However, I had a solid backgroung in business, advertising, marketing and sales. So I pretty much understood what direction to take when I entered this great industry.
I didn't even know discussusion groups existed until one year ago. I have to be truthful if I had read all the various posts when I first got started I doubt if I would have ever even started in this business.
First I can tell which posters have really done deals and which ones are copying something they read or heard and there are many of them on the boards today.
If you were new and listened to some of them your first deal would most likely be your last deal. I am not alone in this assessment some of the to pro's in the business I talk with have drawn the same conclusion.
My manual and book is written to help someone get started in this business, it shortens the time it would take someone to sort through the real deal and the wannabes.
I answered over two hundred private messages here at TCI alone last month, never asked for anything in return, did not spam anyone, just answered to help someone.
Then the problem of 'information overload" takes over, you read so much material you don't know which way to go or who to believe. I think it is great to have someone to private message, e-mail or telephone call to for help. That's why I do it that way.
I do not have any problem with someone who does not grasp what I am trying to teach and feels they should tell the posters it is my fault because they can't grasp what is going on.
If I where to post all the messages I have recieved saying thank you it would be a new and very large forum here at TCI. If the 'no grasper' feels they should post to tell everyone "Hey I don't get what's going on" then be my guest.
However, you will see as I see in posts people with ulterior motives and hidden agendas, like email me I have what you need and all the other methods the board hustlers have of trying to lure the new person in. I have done my best as a Moderator here to keep the boards clean of these type of people.
So posters should read the posts and make an assessment of why is the person is posting is to help someone or if you check their profile and it shows nothing to help anyone except self gratification then I would be extremely cautious.
John $Cash$ Locke
Hi John,
I may not have been clear in the last post, so just to clarify:
Everything that you mention in your book(s), is on this website, BECAUSE you have written an answer to someone's question. In other words, instead of telling someone "That's in my book, please send $49 to ....", you just tell them the answer. Most authors would NOT do that, they would plug their book and leave.[ Edited by Bruce on Date 08/04/2003 ]
Bruce,
You did a great job in your post, thank you for your kind words.
John $Cash$ Locke