Bird Dog This, Bird Dog That...
Hey folks,
Let's here from the people earning money bird dogging deals every month consistently.
How many deals do you bird dog? How much money do you make? What kinds of deals "bird dog the best"?
I have bird dogged dozens of deals and NO RESULTS. I don't believe it is as viable as everyone makes it out to be.
Prove me wrong, please help, and tell me what I could be doing that is causing such poor results.
Thanks, Dave
Dave,
The biggest thing with birddogging, is that your learning. Most people set out to birddog, and end up doing the deal as an investor, or teamed up with an investor. Are you finding deals, and they just arn't going through? Is it possible that leads are being taken, and now they are going around you? What seems to be the problem?
[addsig]
Birddog, if you have bird dogged deals succesfully, I gracefully ask you to answer the questions I posed in the original post.
I only want to hear real success stories, about real properties, and real scenarios.
Thanks, Dave
You said, "I have bird dogged dozens of deals and NO RESULTS." if this is the case then it appears to be one of two things, either the deals you've found weren't really deals or the people you presented the deals to weren't really investors.
Hey folks,
Thanks for the responses, but I guess no one is really reading my post clearly.
If you have done deals, made money, I want to hear from you. Otherwise, the kinds of posts above just aren't helpful.
The people I bird dogged the deals to WERE investors, perhaps the ones I bird dogged were not the best deals, they were listed on MLS.
However, let's not talk first about what Dave did wrong, let's talk about what YOU DID RIGHT.
Otherwise, do not post, please. Thanks, Dave
Please know that all deals I bird dogged needed work, were priced well below FMV, and seemed to have profit potential, but I am not a builder or a construction guy. IF I am going to spend as much time as it would take to make sure i am accurately assessing all costs involved in the deal, I might as well just invest in it and partner up with someone with money. Why do all that work for $500 that could never materialize?
Rehabbers have enough of a time determining costs accurately.
You see, I just don't believe bird dogging either works or is worth it if it does. How much time do you have to put in to make $500?
HOw many investors will actually tell you tehy closed on a house? I have spent too much time on this already, moving on to other niches, sick of bird dogging and wasting my time.
Prove me wrong! Tell me it IS worth it and BACK IT UP, or I am passing on what seems to be a worthless idea in real estate. Bird dogging is a myth to me in this moment...
I'd love to hear from JohnLocke, rajwarrior, enormoustrousers, joel, jfmlv1950, nebulousd, as those folks are moderators of this forum, and I assume have done bird dogging successfully.
whoever does post with successes, put down your state please. Thanks, Dave
Dave,
I am just starting to do some birding in FL. Just wondering, When you do yours, do the investors want you to work all the rehab numbers before you present an offer?
I'm in Massachusetts. Most want a name and a number.
If no one answers my questions or actually comes out and says they bird dogged this deal or that, I think you'll know the answer to how real bird dogging really is.
However, don't get me wrong. I want to be proved wrong, here. But no responses yet...
I understand the frustration, but I cannot prove you wrong, as I am just starting.
The guys I'm working with don't just want a name and number. They told me what they are looking for, and they want me to make cash offers on the spot (with an exit clause - "weasel", if you will - in case they can't make the numbers jive). They are of the opinion that anybody can get a name and number, especially from MLS (no slight to what you and yours are doing- just what the guys here want). Maybe this would be a better strategy for you, as you get to write the offers yourself. Also, have you followed up on any of your deals to see if they sold after you made your offers, to whom and for how much?
waste of my time to do all that follow up, can't risk the time it takes to find out most likely that nothing happened. Then if I do, what am I going to do, sue for $500? Please, bird dog contracts are in name only, not enforeceable and not worth enforcing if they were.
You are assigning deals. You put the deal under contract in your name, then assign it for $2k-$10k depending on how much profit is left over for the rehabber. If you are going to do that much work, better to put it in your own name, that is what I plan on doing.
Those guys in FL want contracts, and you are a wholesaler. Be sure about what they are requesting of you, and be sure you know who they are, and that they themselves are not just like you, looking to daisy chain the deal all teh way down the line, which will give you a bad rep and result in deals that do not close.
Did you pre-screen them?
They are reputable. Founders of our local real estate investment club (pretty big club actually). They mostly buy and hold. Some properties are fixed and flipped, but those are few.
I would love to put them in my name for me. I don't have cash safety net though. I could probably find something with little or no down, but it would probably need some rehab. I would just feel more comfortable if I had some cash to fall back on. I'm a little apprehensive to just jump right in. So I was going to bird dog, earn a few $K, learn some in the process, then go for it.
I know you can't sue or anything crazy like that for your take. I just thought you could find out if they were going behind you and stealing the deals you found without paying you.
If you are going to make cash offers on the spot with weasel clauses, that means you are putting those offers in writing, which means you are NOT bird dogging.
Are you making offers with someone elses name, or your own?
Mine
Then you are a wholesaler. If the contract is in your name, but you are not planning on taking title in your name, but instead planning on SELLING YOUR CONTRACT to these other investors for a mark up in price which = YOUR PROFIT, then you are a wholesaler. Do not let them make you think you are bird dogging.
That contract you would have is very valuable to them if it is a good deal, so don't minimize it. Go out and find TEN more investors to sell contracts to, don't be beholden to just one group.
Here is an example:
* You find fixer property
* Seller is motivated (this is key)
* You get it under contract for $75k
* ARV (after repair value) is $140k
* Property needs $20k in repair
* Closing, holding, and sales costs to end buyer/rehabber/investor could be around $15,000 let's say.
* That all adds up to $110k in cost to investor, and their profit would be $30k
* However, you are the one with the deal on the table, so you sell your contract for $5k, walk away without ever putting your name on title, and they get a good deal that they make $25k on.
Some rehabbers might not find this ratio acceptable, as a 20% profit of ARV (in this case $28k) is the MINIMUM they want, but it all depends on the investor.
Hope this helped you. You are NOT a bird dog! You are an INVESTOR
Very helpful. That's why I'm here, to learn before I do something dumb.
?
So, what if I were to make the purchase agreement in their names? Is that legal?
Also, if I sell the purchase agreement to them, I am entitled to copies of their rehab expenses, so I know their profit margin? Would I go to the closing, or just sell the purchase agreement to them without telling the seller (besides in the purchase agreement as "or assigns"
Thanks for the dialogue by the way - very informative.
Dave,
I am a bird dog for Southern California. I have an contract with the particular investor. I am woring with investors that pay 10-50% of profit when they resale. I think it pays to wait to get paid after resale.
davehays,
First I have worked with Bird Dogs for years, some of my best deals came from them. I pay my Bird Dog's anywhere from $500 to $25,000 for the deals they bring me.
Second if you have a signed contract with the investor and they do not honor the deal you can go to small claims court for about $35.00 no attorney required. You can also cloud the title to the property for a few bucks.
You say you don't have time to follow up, well this is a business so you have no one to blame but yourself for not knowing what is happening to your leads.
If you are using the MLS then this is one poor way to go to find leads, you need to be out there finding the deals by having sellers call you. Why do I know because I figured out along time ago that the best lead is when a seller calls you, because or your marketing efforts and they need help, albeit a Sub 2, Re-Hab, etc.
I don't know anything about these investors you have been giving the leads to, sounds like they fell asleep on the couch watching a late nite guru informercial and when they woke up in the morning they were one.
I do not know one of one pro investor including any of my students who would have a problem paying for a lead from a Bird Dog.
John $Cash$ Locke
PS: Maybe you missed this poll on TCI.
http://www.thecreativeinvestor.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&op=results&pollID=51&mode=&order=0&thold=0
You say you are a wholesaler by your profile, yet you are asking about not been able to do a Bird Dog deal for an investor, or asking who has Bird Dogged deals, then give advice about wholesaling in a post, what is you are looking to do?
[ Edited by JohnLocke on Date 03/04/2004 ]
Here's my $.02.
You must provide something that your investors cannot get off of the internet.
What is that thing you must provide them?
The answer is whatever your investors want. You must fully assess their needs and comfort levels and cash levels and look to meet their needs.
You should be networking, getting leads, keeping your eyes and ears peeled with an open mind and vision.
MLS is post-mortem.
Who are your investors and what do they need? What can you provide that is not available on the web? For me, its getting "right of refusal" or "dibs" or "first crack" at an opportunity.
Here's an example of bird dogging in progress that I will get paid for somehow:
A friend has a co-worker that has a smelly cat house, lots of debt, the ability to move away. I was told about this lady because my contact worked- they said "hey thats what Cliffrock does, let me put them together. So I get a call (from a one-time birddog), "hey my coworker might need to sell her smelly cat house."
At this point, I raise my front paw, point my tail and call people. I saw "hey general contractor friend, wanna fix up a house, and they said yes. I called cash friend and they said they wanted to make some money." At this point, the property is being negotiated on, the investor and rehabber are going to partner up and make 10-20k, they agreed to pay me for finding them deals, they flip, I get paid.
I know you were zealously asking for completed bird-dogging stories, this one is in progress.
The point about learning is crucial. The rehabber and I are walking through the property estimating costs, the investor is telling me what kind of contract he and the rehabber are signing, I am watching a motivated seller squirm.
Example number 2:
I used to rent this lovely little rambler, the elderly folks next door were gone half the time. 5 years later I see they still own the house, and are gone most of the time. I find their mailing address (a local PO BOX, no doubt forwarded) write a letter saying that I am interested in buying it... wait and see for the teardown to materialize. If it does, the investor and builder will profit and pay me a share.
Example number 3.
Crappy looking rental house near smelly cat-lady's house. Rented by Weichert I think, anyway, its been vacant for a while. Thats potentially a motivated seller. I wrote the owner a letter asking thtem to sell, even if tenants come in (subject-to-lease). That house is a rehabbers dream. If that comes together, the rehabber and cash giver will pay me a cut.
Put little agreements in writing, it helps everyone remeber each other, plus birddogging goes both ways... when people know you BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER, they send you leads.
I don't know what other people think bird dogging is, I have seen Irish setters used by hunters...
[addsig]
Cliffrock,
Very good post. Thank you for sharing.
I was just thinking why doesn't someone post and ask for a persons Social Security number and a valid Credit Card number, I mean what the heck, I am sure everyone loves to tell everyone everything they do in this business.
Or maybe some people keep thier private business private for many reasons that I can think of.
John $Cash$ Locke
I have been referring REO properties. Great for potential profits!!
John, you had me at your last post, the second one is unnecessary, a little dramatic, though I was a little dramatic in my post too
Look, I appreciate everyone's post here, and I think the lesson I have learned is that I need to focus more on the private ways of finding deals and if I can't get one under contract myself to flip, then I can bird dog it to another investor who might want to come in for round two.
The real rehabbers are busy, not friendly, and not interested in teaching me how to do business. Glad you, cliffrock, are having a good experience with working directly. Great way to learn.
And John, was my advice not correct to the guy in Pensacola? I am primarily a note broker for the current moment, was intending on wholesaling and still do, but I am not a paper investor per se, so wholesaler was the nearest one TCI would allow me to choose.
Thanks to all who posted, my best, Dave (without the evil face any more
John,
You also say you pay bird dogs $25k?! Did they assign that deal to you, or did they just provide info you requested that they provide, and then you went in and were first one on contract?
I think this post is valid, because in my mind, there are three distinct areas of wholesaling.
1. Bird dog: no contract, no title, finds properties that meet investors requirements, if they like and they CLOSE, they pay a small fee (in my area it is $500 to $1000 MAX)
2. Flipper/Assigner: contract, no title (or if title for 5 min. at simo close) finds properties gets them under contract and sells the contract to investor who will close and make the bigger dollars ($1000 to $10k+ depending on how good the deal is)
3. Wholesaler: contract and title. Holds for a while, and either rents out (holding long) or prehabs, sells for a little more money to a rehabber who is a.....RETAILER.
A bird dog does not get on contract. True? If so, that $25k bird dog fee must have been for an amazing deal, and since internet does not convey emotions well, I truly mean it, and I know such deals are out there, on occasion.
Thanks, Dave
Dave,
I'd like to know where you found these definitions for wholesaler and "flipper". I wasn't aware that they are two different things.
I think you're confusing things here.
As far as I'm aware -
A bird dog is someone who brings deals to investors and generally lacks the tools necessary to complete to deal (generally know-how). A wholesaler or "flipper" is one who assigns their contract to another investor.
A wholesaler has the contract signed with the seller, has the know how to complete the deal, but for whatever reason can't complete the deal. Maybe they are short on cash, maybe they are busy working on 3 other deals. Who knows what the reason may be. The main point here is that they KNOW what to do, already have negotiated the price, terms, etc.
A bird dog generally does NOT have this knowledge. Otherwise they would just do the deal themselves. They bring potential deals to the attention of the investor.
So, in conclusion. A bird dog brings a POTENTIAL deal to an investor. A wholesaler brings a completed deal to an investor.
This is why a wholesaler will generally get more money than a bird dog. The deal is farther along in the process and more work has been done on it.
Make sense?
Ryan J. Schnabel
[ Edited by rjs9352 on Date 03/04/2004 ]
[ Edited by rjs9352 on Date 03/04/2004 ][ Edited by rjs9352 on Date 03/04/2004 ]
I put it under contract will not recive no less than 5000 or 10% of the contract. now stop whining and go makes some deals.
I can't understand why people feel the constant need to take potshots at people when they are not face to face with them. They sometimes get very bold on the other side of the internet from someone. I feel that if someone cant post something worth reading besides.."quit whining and do some deals"..then they should keep there opinions to themselves. This is one of the best things going for everyone to learn from people, lets try and be civil to each other here. Leave the pot shots out of the conversations please? That is not in anyway constructive nor is it educational for those of us wanting to hear real informative information on subjects the here.
Now, I'll get of my soap box and continue with my investing. Thank you for hearing me out.
Dave
I can tell you in our group our bird dogs (for non-rehab properties) make between $10K and $15K per month. We purchase between 22 and 32 properties per month over the last 18 months (both pre-foreclosures and properties with equity spreads of 30% or greater) and the bird dog or finder who brings them in gets a standard cut of the profit we make at closing. Right now this has worked for bird dogs in our group in TX, IN, IL, FL, MD, NJ, GA. In most cases the bird dogs were not having success making money on other investment deals and hooked up with us and then eventually grow to become full partners (investors) in the group.
I hope that helps. You can certainly make money at it with the right properties and investor groups. If you have any other questions let me know.
John
TKI Group
davehays,
Two deals I remember well where I paid $25K were Subject To deals.
One was a 8 unit apartment complex, a 21 unit motel and a resturant. The seller just wanted to retire and my Bird Dog knew the seller and introduced me to him, no contract with the Bird Dog I just said if I get this deal you will be taken care of.
I purchased a property in CA on the ocean, where the seller had a balloon note due in 6 months and was motivated for various reasons to sell. Same thing here I told the Bird Dog the minute the seller signs at my price you will have a check for $25K.
I only paid them 10% of what I made on both deals, I think everyone walked away with a big smile, maybe mine was a little bigger than theirs, but all in all eveyone shared in the deals.
They probably would have liked to have done the deals themselves, but then they understood that they were not ready for deals like these themselves.
There are Bird Dogs I have trained that went on to investor status and I will state are worth a few bucks today.
John $Cash$ Locke
Just a quick note to let all know that bird dogging does work. I'm a newbie also, but I have been birddogging for this investor, and he is about to close on two properties within the next week. Soon to be cash in my pockets.
From what I read, it appears that you know a little bit about investing, so why the hell are you going on and on about birddogging? Put your knowledge to use and do a deal. Leave birddogging alone. Also, it never helps to reply to your own post more often than other members. Rubs people the wrong way. Maybe that's why you're not getting any responses.
Personally, I don't like the idea of birddogging. Sure, it's great to get experience, but who the hell wants to hustle for a friggin' $500 fee? Get control of a property, find a buyer and assign it or split the profits 50/50 in return for the privelege of stepping back and letting him broker the deal, watching and learning what he does. Sure, you're giving up about 2-5k on a wholesale flip, but the value you receive in return for that small investment is priceless.
I imagine there are experienced investors who love the birddog concept and promote it. Get some sucker to do all the hard work, pay him half a k and make 5-10k for myself... sounds great.
I don't work that cheap. Neither should anyone who considers themself an "investor"
[addsig]
John, I figured the deals were big ones like that. I bet you had a big smile
Holler, I'll reply to my own post as many times as I want to bud, I had forgotten a few things, and added them in, after all, it's a dialogue, right?
Well everybody, your posts have been helpful, and I am on to greener pastures. My best to you all, and here's to your success, Dave